"Phoney Wars" and diplomacy

[ernieschwitz]

As I have outlined earlier, I feel that it is important to have a "no Phoney wars" house rule, in place when playing GD 1938. Especially if one player is playing more than 1 nation.

Chuck has come up with a good example of a phoney war: The USSR declaring war on USA on the first turn of the game, with the intent of breaking US isolationism, and no intent on following through on the course of war. This is a "phoney war", as it would not be fought in ernest. However, if the USSR really had an itch in the late game, to conquer some of the territory that the USA had liberated, then a war between USA and USSR would be perfectly legal.

Hence, it is hard to predetermine what a "phoney war" is just by looking at the nations participating.

An oft tried thing, most often out of error than really ill will I feel, is when a nation, say Germany, declares war on another nation, say Yugoslavia, and a country that would otherwise be a friend of Germany, gets control of said country. Say Italy. For it not to be a phoney war, Italy would have to fight Germany, in earnest. Often however what happens is this, peace on the very next turn. And the result is a country that has been taken over, cheaply, with no swords play.

I think this often happens cause people do not look at who the best friend of said country is. When they then declare war, it will result in a shock, when they see it is a friend they are now at war with. The peace, then is something that was not thought out, but a result of not knowing or not really taking the time to look who is the best friend of the country you are attacking.

The current system is made to allow maximum flexibility. Honestly I have yet to see Italy and Germany go to war for real, but it COULD happen. Thus I am inclined not to fix the system, and instead have players reminded that there is this house rule.

I COULD put it in the briefing, or even more prominent, as a pop-up on the first turn of the game... What are your feelings, if you played the scenario?

[LJBurstyn]

Too bad wars can be ended immediately...maybe it can be made that a certain number of turns must elapse before peace can be declared (to represent the parties getting together around a table to talk it out---and diplomats LOVE to talk).

BUT I THINK THE FOLLOWING IS POSSIBLE

Perhaps it could be made that a pop up will show up when war is declared saying that so-and-so is protecting that nation DO YOU WANT TO DECLARE WAR (Yes/No). If confirmed than the party may be thought of as starting a "phoney war" if it meets your definition.

[ernieschwitz]

BUT I THINK THE FOLLOWING IS POSSIBLE

Perhaps it could be made that a pop up will show up when war is declared saying that so-and-so is protecting that nation DO YOU WANT TO DECLARE WAR (Yes/No). If confirmed than the party may be thought of as starting a "phoney war" if it meets your definition.

A pop up would be nice, but, binary choices are not possible to make as options in messages. Unfortunately. I could make a card that simply said yes or no, after the message, but that would be very cluttering.

[Jeffrey H.]

ORIGINAL: ernieschwitz

...
I think this often happens cause people do not look at who the best friend of said country is. When they then declare war, it will result in a shock, when they see it is a friend they are now at war with. The peace, then is something that was not thought out, but a result of not knowing or not really taking the time to look who is the best friend of the country you are attacking.
...

I believe this is a problem in the state of game play, but I wouldn't consider this an example of a phoney war. It's not always intentional but it does result in am immediate peace and a resulting settlement in a diplomatic duel. If a player controls two countries he can sacrifice PP's from one to DOW and they will trigger the alliance for perhaps the other country the player controls. I think that's kind of obscure but it is a vulnerability. In essence a short cut around the intended diplomatic aspect of the game.

House rules and perhaps some sort of reminder of the diplomatic aspects of neutrals for new players should solve it.

[gazfun]

Claus
To stop phoney wars the to go back to peace there would have to be mandatory conditions one country could impose on another in the terms of the peace that would have to be agreed between 2 sides.
these terms are standard varying from easy terms to harsh terms.

[ernieschwitz]

Yeah, well, in a game where diplomacy isn't determined 100% by cards, players themselves tend to give lenient conditions....

[gazfun]

Conditions should be set out in 2 types of peace Conditional and Unconditional

Conditional Peace Terms may include only two of the following. The defeated side can only choose one of the terms that cant be selected.
cannot DOW on a Country for a short period of time like 12 to 18months
Loss of Political Points
Loss of Territory
Loss of small number of units to a value of SFT's

Unconditional Peace. includes all of the following
Cannot DOW for 24 months or 36 months
Loss of Political Points
Loss of Large amounts of Territory
Loss of a large number of SFT