I feel dirty playing as Soviet.

[rmonical]

I am winding up a game as German on turn 13 where the Soviet player did everything STAVKA commanded their troops to do.
As Soviet, I am making 60-KM retreats just to prevent the retreating units from getting surrounded. Is there a single historical example where this occurred?

[A game]

This has been a problem with the game since the very beginning.

Thats why I recently asked in the WitE 2 thread if there are any plans to fix this.

I have no bias for either side, its not about making it 'easy' for Axis. For me the worst thing is it just makes for a tedious, boring game if the Soviets all run east for 10 turns. It would be great if the Soviets had incentives to fight forward and actually were rewarded (VPs, morale, etc) if they could hold certain lines or areas for X number of turns.

[rmonical]

Well thinking about it some more. The pre-emptive retreat doctrine follows from
1. the one week time scale and the incredible mobility 50 movement points gives a high morale unit.
2/ The all or nothing pocket rules.

This is an Alt-CV game T4-T5. I admit I do not understand Alt CV
.
The German motorized regiment traversed 160 KM of mostly contested territory to get to Vyazma. I long ago suggested that we should increase the cost of battle related hexes. Some ideas:
- Double for a hex which was defended. Alternatively - add 50% for each hasty attack and 200% for each deliberate attack launched against a hex.
- Add 50% for each attack launched from a hex (cumulative). So a hex cleared by a hasty attack and then from which a hast attack is launched counts double.
- Impose an MP cost for displacing zero combat factor units. I hate the current approach for dealing with these.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: rmonical

Well thinking about it some more. The pre-emptive retreat doctrine follows from
1. the one week time scale and the incredible mobility 50 movement points gives a high morale unit.
2/ The all or nothing pocket rules.

...
.
The German motorized regiment traversed 160 KM of mostly contested territory to get to Vyazma. I long ago suggested that we should increase the cost of battle related hexes. Some ideas:
- Double for a hex which was defended. Alternatively - add 50% for each hasty attack and 200% for each deliberate attack launched against a hex.
- Add 50% for each attack launched from a hex (cumulative). So a hex cleared by a hasty attack and then from which a hast attack is launched counts double.
- Impose an MP cost for displacing zero combat factor units. I hate the current approach for dealing with these.

There are a number of mechanisms in WiTE2 that I think will solve your concerns.

First the idea of combat delay (from WiTW) is in the game. A hex gains a movement penalty of 1 (hasty) or 3 (deliberate) per attack. So if it takes two major assaults to breach the front, any exploitation is going to be limited.

Second, as in WITW, pockets are not always easy to clear. Better led units etc can retain some combat power, am seeing encirclement battles in Bielorussia running into T5.

Third, if you don't use all your MPs, you gain 'preparation points' - in effect a multiplier to your cv on the attack. At the moment, you lose this incrementally if you are attacked and totally if you attack. That makes attacking all along the line (as happens a lot in WiTE) very inefficient. It also means a screen of weak (unready) divisions can be effective as a tool to soften an offensive. This affects both sides. With the Germans you want to avoid too much combat with 'unready' units as they will burn off your prep points and with the Soviets you need to hold sectors of the line with 3-4,000 man rifle divisions which are nothing but a trip wire.

Fourth, combat, especially if it generates a rout or shatter also generates more surrenders. To put this in context by T20 vs AI in WiTE2 as the Soviets I had 1.4m prisoners and 1.1kia - my last game vs AI using WiTE (I think it was .08.03) I had 640k and 250k respectively.

Generally, playing the axis in WiTE2 I am finding I have come to regard pockets as a nice secondary consequence of an offensive whereas in WiTE its the focal point of good German gameplay. But you are attacking for strategic/operational goals. But there is no real incentive for a Soviet player to run away, even as the Germans win they weaken.

Add on a hugely more realistic supply system and ...

[morvael]

Certainly, lessons have been learned. WitE2 will be a better game.

rmonical, Alt CV simply shows you more accurate, expected (in other words: for average rolls), CV (strength) on the counters, CV in combat is calculated in the same way as before (with random rolls), and so is not affected.

[NotOneStepBack]

That's why I play Bitter End. There is an incentive to hold land.

[wga8888]

I am in my first campaign game (turn 4) after playing five different 1941 scenarios, all vs human opposition, all with me as soviets. What I have learned is the soviets cannot defend anything or even slow the Germans down much. Soviets have no offensive capability what so ever. German units are immune from effective attack. In the Operation Typhoon, all Soviet stacks had a combat value of 1 (likely rounded up to 1) and German stacks all had double digit defense. Until blizzard shows up; Strengths shift greatly artificially due to weather. However attacking at 5:1 odds, the Soviets still incur more losses.

it does not look like there will be a midgame or endgame, there is nothing much to stop the German movement forward. Forward isolated German units do not have to worry about being attacked when large swaths of the front are devoid of Soviet units.

In scenario play RTL, Leningrad falls in September/October. May happen sooner in my current campaign game. It is a challenge for the Russians to keep it in various boardgame but is unlikely in both the SPI War in Europe and Matrix WITE.

Unlike boardgame play of a dozen titles where Soviets can chip away at lead elements with counterattacks, it does not seem likely in WTIE. Any unit which attacks is forfeit by following isolation.

it may be that WITE is another title in the modern era that ensures the German player will win. In the old days, games challenged the aggressor player to win as would normally lose. Similar to WITP, WITE removes all the historical limitations, tendancies, etc by giving players a unified command & ability to customize units.

[morvael]

ORIGINAL: wga
Unlike boardgame play of a dozen titles where Soviets can chip away at lead elements with counterattacks, it does not seem likely in WTIE. Any unit which attacks is forfeit by following isolation.

I believe WitE2 has that modelled correctly.

[RKhan]

ORIGINAL: wga

I am in my first campaign game (turn 4) after playing five different 1941 scenarios, all vs human opposition, all with me as soviets. What I have learned is the soviets cannot defend anything or even slow the Germans down much. Soviets have no offensive capability what so ever. German units are immune from effective attack. In the Operation Typhoon, all Soviet stacks had a combat value of 1 (likely rounded up to 1) and German stacks all had double digit defense. Until blizzard shows up; Strengths shift greatly artificially due to weather. However attacking at 5:1 odds, the Soviets still incur more losses.

it does not look like there will be a midgame or endgame, there is nothing much to stop the German movement forward. Forward isolated German units do not have to worry about being attacked when large swaths of the front are devoid of Soviet units.

In scenario play RTL, Leningrad falls in September/October. May happen sooner in my current campaign game. It is a challenge for the Russians to keep it in various boardgame but is unlikely in both the SPI War in Europe and Matrix WITE.

Unlike boardgame play of a dozen titles where Soviets can chip away at lead elements with counterattacks, it does not seem likely in WTIE. Any unit which attacks is forfeit by following isolation.

it may be that WITE is another title in the modern era that ensures the German player will win. In the old days, games challenged the aggressor player to win as would normally lose. Similar to WITP, WITE removes all the historical limitations, tendancies, etc by giving players a unified command & ability to customize units.

I for one don't think the Germans are bound to win and so far I have only played Soviet, but I do agree the game does not feel like the real war when I'm constantly falling back and not attacking at all.

However, after years of wargaming and studying history I have largely given up the idea that one meaningfully recreates the other.