Does the Soviet AI need help?

[elmo3]

I've been watching the video series on Youtube by Night Phoenix. Very entertaining. However it looks like the Soviet AI really needs help, especially in the Ukraine. So far it has left Chernigov, Gomel, Krivoy Rog and the nearby mines, Bryansk, Poltava, Sumy, Kursk, Kharkov, Orel, Kaluga, Tula, and even Dnepropetrovsk which is a NM Objective all undefended!

In short there were virtually no Soviet defensive forces south of Moscow all the way to the Crimea. Not sure if the AI is not building forces, or if it is building them and then moving them off to the middle of nowhere. Hopefully this has been addressed already, or if not then by the time of launch.

[ILCK]

He was destroying massive numbers of units, my impression was there was nothing for the AI to play there and it focusing on the locations that mattered most.

Comparing his steamroller with what happened to ParaDogs in his review it feels like the AI plays pretty well. ParaDogs is in a lot of trouble because he was unable to focus on Russia and didn't get that massive wipe out of units and seizure of MPPs early and the AI is punching back nicely.

[Biker1984]

There are some good things and some bad things I have seen by the "Soviet" AI.
The good things is that they focus their attacks to weaken the units and trying to destroy it (combined with the airforce), so they did a good offensive in the spring 1942 almost destroying a panzer core. Second they fortify there defense line very good as such they are hard to beat after 1942.
At the same time I have also seen constantly attacking "the supposed weaker unit" as a weakness. I have seen the soviets attacking a well defended infantry division behind a river only inflicting damage between 1 to 3 points and not doing any damage to the Germans for 5 separate units. Even if they have done 1 strength point of damage it would not add up to the 5 to 10 points they have lost during those attacks. In addition they use strategic railway movement way to much about 2-3 times per turn, which cost them significantly MPP. I don't mind that they use strategic railway movement, but if the cost would be the same as the Germans a lot of valuable MPP is lost.
I'm also not that impressed by the USA navy at this point of the game. I woudl say if London has fallen, the USA declares war on Germany and sends its complete fleet to hinder the German invasion. Sealion against the AI is to easy at this point.

[Toby42]

From the latest Paradogs video I think that the Soviet AI is doing fine! I think that the Axis is in trouble in Russia?

[elmo3]

ORIGINAL: Treale

From the latest Paradogs video I think that the Soviet AI is doing fine! I think that the Axis is in trouble in Russia?

That could be but it looks to me like Night Phoenix is playing a newer version of the game so I was wondering if something changed in the Soviet AI that was causing it problems.

[Ancient One]

ORIGINAL: elmo3

ORIGINAL: Treale

From the latest Paradogs video I think that the Soviet AI is doing fine! I think that the Axis is in trouble in Russia?

That could be but it looks to me like Night Phoenix is playing a newer version of the game so I was wondering if something changed in the Soviet AI that was causing it problems.

Honestly, it looks like most of the difference is that Night Phoenix is a more skilled player than Paradogs at this game (no offense to the latter).

[ILCK]

ORIGINAL: Zagys

ORIGINAL: elmo3

ORIGINAL: Treale

From the latest Paradogs video I think that the Soviet AI is doing fine! I think that the Axis is in trouble in Russia?

That could be but it looks to me like Night Phoenix is playing a newer version of the game so I was wondering if something changed in the Soviet AI that was causing it problems.

Honestly, it looks like most of the difference is that Night Phoenix is a more skilled player than Paradogs at this game (no offense to the latter).

NP was more ready to launch Barbarossa was a big part of it. USSR declared war on PD and he wasn't ready in the east. Good example of the risk of SeaLion.

That said, I had hoped PD was on the newer version because the UI in the PD video looks a lot better than the one in the NP videos.

[Ancient One]

ORIGINAL: ILCK
That said, I had hoped PD was on the newer version because the UI in the PD video looks a lot better than the one in the NP videos.

I hope not, because it doesn't look like that one has the "MAX" button for reinforcements.

[elmo3]

ORIGINAL: Zagys

I hope not, because it doesn't look like that one has the "MAX" button for reinforcements.

That and the better looking research screen is what made me think Night Phoenix is using a more current build.

[Hubert Cater]

Thanks for the questions everyone and I thought I'd post a quick comment on the Axis invasion of the USSR and what to expect from the Soviet side, i.e. against the AI or a human player.

Currently the campaigns have been designed/balanced with the historical timelines in mind and this just means that a well thought out and planned Operation Barbarossa should see the Axis player eliminate scores of Soviet units, with limited to no losses to their own side, and ideally reach the gates of Moscow by the first winter of 1941. At that point the Axis should suffer some effects of overstretching their supply lines, the Soviet Winter effects, and the Soviet lines should somewhat stabilize with the arrival of the Siberian units as well as any repurchases on their own end.

Under the right circumstances, and at this point in the game, you should see some ebb and flow on that front until the end of the war with either the Axis finally able to tip the balance in their favor, or the Allies tipping the balance and pushing back on all fronts from their side.

We've seen examples of two games, one from PD, and one from NP, and if Barbarossa is not initially a very strong push from the Axis, then the slow build up and eventual push back will happen earlier from the Soviet side, while if Barbarossa is more like NP's game then what you see there is typically expected and if the Soviet AI has run out of defenders from the early attacks then the Axis may find some locations undefended as it pushes forward to its historical objectives. Again this would be the same in either a human vs human or versus an AI game as the Soviet side only has so many initial units, with so much territory to cover, and it takes time to rebuild from your losses in game.

Of course this all being said, we also have to take into account different skill levels and some players will find the Soviet theater playing out just perfectly, while others will be better off playing at one of the higher difficulty levels and providing the AI with some help like additional MPP collection and/or experience and so on, especially after a few games and once the game mechanics and strategies settle down for you etc.

For the excessive operational movement, this was a bit of a bug in these betas where the AI was constantly attempting to redress the "weak fronts" by sending units back and forth in an attempt to balance them out, and yes this was an unnecessary expense that ultimately hurt the AI in terms of MPP costs, so consider this fixed and much improved from these beta playthroughs.

For the US naval side, it is still early in game and the US navy does take into account the loss of the UK home island and is planning accordingly as it not only has the responsibility of counterattacking, but also to screen and shield any potential US infantry transports or amphibious assault vehicles... so there will eventually be some action but again here the AI plays for the long game much like how a human player will do as well.

Not saying that there is never any room for improvements, just outlining some of the thought process that goes into the AI as there is always so much for it to cover from game to game and from outcome to outcome.

Hope this helps,
Hubert

[apec]

There is the excellent Barbarossa AAR by HvS, I suspect he is using a more recent beta version. He is playing very well, nonetheless the AI looks more challenging campared to what I have seen in the video.

[BillRunacre]

Yes, HvS's version is more recent than the video series. He is also an extremely good player!

[elmo3]

Thanks Hubert.

I have not followed the HVS AAR in detail, just browsing, but will go back and read through it since he has a newer build.

[ILCK]

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

Currently the campaigns have been designed/balanced with the historical timelines in mind and this just means that a well thought out and planned Operation Barbarossa should see the Axis player eliminate scores of Soviet units, with limited to no losses to their own side, and ideally reach the gates of Moscow by the first winter of 1941. At that point the Axis should suffer some effects of overstretching their supply lines, the Soviet Winter effects, and the Soviet lines should somewhat stabilize with the arrival of the Siberian units as well as any repurchases on their own end.

Trying to see this in the videos and haven't been able to get a good view. As you cut off pockets of units they suffer some supply penalties depending on if they are either in a city of the pocket has a city but are there any other effects in terms of readiness and morale to being out of supply?

[BillRunacre]

Being low on supply reduces readiness and morale and the ability to reinforce, so overall it makes these units much easier to destroy, while suffering fewer casualties yourself.

[Biker1984]

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

Of course this all being said, we also have to take into account different skill levels and some players will find the Soviet theater playing out just perfectly, while others will be better off playing at one of the higher difficulty levels and providing the AI with some help like additional MPP collection and/or experience and so on, especially after a few games and once the game mechanics and strategies settle down for you etc.

For the excessive operational movement, this was a bit of a bug in these betas where the AI was constantly attempting to redress the "weak fronts" by sending units back and forth in an attempt to balance them out, and yes this was an unnecessary expense that ultimately hurt the AI in terms of MPP costs, so consider this fixed and much improved from these beta playthroughs.

For the US naval side, it is still early in game and the US navy does take into account the loss of the UK home island and is planning accordingly as it not only has the responsibility of counterattacking, but also to screen and shield any potential US infantry transports or amphibious assault vehicles... so there will eventually be some action but again here the AI plays for the long game much like how a human player will do as well.

Thanks a lot for addressing my concerns here Hubert and I'm absolutely going to purchase this game as I like the dept and the overall handling the AI specific problems. Great to hear that the operational movement for the AI has being addressed.
I may have missing it but I have not seen the Soviet winter in PD games. Are there certain prerequisites that would trigger this?
What I also have seen is that the Sealion is a success and the UK has no more ground units in Britain, the US will send in a lot of aircraft. I would expect this to happen if the UK has still a lot of ground units (so during a historical accurate gameplay).
Is the AI counting that a possible Axis Sealion is successful and if yes how would the US react to that?

[ILCK]

I saw the Soviet Winter in one video. Movement grinds to a halt and Germans units take actual damage as well. Not sure if there are readiness and morale penalties along with it.

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater
and if the Soviet AI has run out of defenders

The notion that the Soviet Union would be devoid of units at any time in the war is just silly. Between June-December 1941, the Soviets mobilized almost 10 million reservists and volunteers. They lost about 6 million in the same time period so they almost doubled the size of their at start forces in 5 months.

The soviet Union didn't suffer manpower shortages until near the end of 1943, and that wasn't even close to a situation where the country was devoid of units. The U.S.S.R never came close to a situation where it couldn't keep a solid front line after the first month or so of the war.

http://operationbarbarossa.net/wp-conte ... ucture.pdf

Between 22nd June and 31st December 1941 the USSR called up 5 500 000 of its reservists
and conscripts into active service. In addition another 4 000 000 men and women ‘volunteered’ for
militia or volunteer units, and most of these ended up in the Red Army. This easily remains the
largest and fastest wartime mobilisation by any country in history. The overall Soviet forces
mobilised in the second half of 1941 were actually larger in personnel terms than the entire Soviet
armed services that existed on 22nd June 1941 (although in equipment terms, especially tanks and
aircraft, they were considerably weaker). This was just as well because by November 1941 the Red
Army and Air Force that existed on 22nd June 1941 (then already both the largest in the world) had
been all but destroyed. In this chapter we will focus on the immense Soviet ground forces that were
mobilised between 22nd June and 31st December 1941.

Edit: A good way to possibly represent the massive manpower pools and faster than normal mobilization would be to make Soviet Corps free auto-builds. So if a Corp dies it automatically goes on the production track and perhaps make them arrive a turn or two early. Making the Corps slightly weaker than most countries Corps would help mitigate the free builds. The goal being to allow the soviets to throw cheap/weak defensive units in front of an attacker without gaining too much attack potential.

Jim

[Scook_99]

Thank you for your insights to the AI, Hubert, there is a noticeable difference between this version and SC2. I was thinking about this...does the AI break down its actions by country, or as a group. Because, I was wondering if there is the ability to set the AI for each country individually? I would expect not, but just thought I would throw that out there to intrigue and terrorize your thoughts simultaneously.

[BillRunacre]

ORIGINAL: ILCK

I saw the Soviet Winter in one video. Movement grinds to a halt and Germans units take actual damage as well. Not sure if there are readiness and morale penalties along with it.

Yes, unit morale and readiness take a hefty penalty too. [:)]