Overly strong pillboxes???

General_Mo · Post by **General_Mo** » Fri Nov 17, 2000 9:38 am

I just started playing SPWAW a few weeks ago
and I REALLY like it! I am in the middle of
the "Moments of Truth '43" Scenario (German
advance vs USSR delay). This scenario contains a number of pillboxes. I found these
damn near immpossible to destroy. For fun I tried to surround one MG pillbox with 5 Panzers (at point-blank range) each sporting a 75mm gun. I positioned all of the Panzers at the rear of the pillbox and let them have at it. This pillbox took over 10 hits in the rear and was not destroyed!!! I love this game but I think the damage modeling (or calculations) for your fortifications needs to be adjusted downward. If you stop and think about it, I think that if you were one of these guys inside a pillbox with 5 Panzers knocking at your back door point-blank (50 yards?) with 10 (or more) 75mm HE shells, you would find your activities highly "suppressed". In fact I think your natural course of action would be to abandon your pillbox due to heavy suppression (that's right run like hell). The modeling of your fortifications could also be modified so that successive point-blank range HE direct fire damages the pillbox. At some point a fortification would be rendered useless or its inhabitants so stunned that their morale status would be equal to "routed". What do you guys think?

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General Mo

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Fri Nov 17, 2000 9:47 am

Now that one has been discussed for hours and hours General Mo. You'd be amazed at how many threads over the weeks have been dedicated to this theme.

I was of the same opinion for a while. Finally I began doing research on bunkers, pillboxes, etc. and found them to really be pretty much in line with what we have in the game. So I retracted my objections.

I remember one instance on the Siegfried Line where they put 320 pounds of TNT around an on one bunker to finally cave it in.

We've all learned to use smoke, cautious approach and constant pounding. You'll find that some go up easier than others. But if you've been used to those cardboard ones in earlier versions of SP, this will be quite a change for you.

Thanks for Playing Moment of Truth, Other than the bunkers, I hope you are enjoying it.

There are easier ones too. You've picked a toughie to begin with...WB

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In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Coordinator, Scenario Design
Matrix Games

Tankhead · Post by **Tankhead** » Fri Nov 17, 2000 10:17 am

Engineers and flamethrower tanks works great for taking those bunkers out same with planes with 500 or 1000 LB bombs.

Tankhead

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Rick Cloutier rcclout@telusplanet.net
Coordinator: Tankhead's SPWAW Resources
http://tankhead.home.icq.com

Warrior · Post by **Warrior** » Fri Nov 17, 2000 10:26 am

Just remember the pictures of the fortifications on the Normandy coast after D-Day. They took an unbelieveable pounding, but still chopped up the landings. If you think pillboxes are bad, wait til you hit the scenario with the T-34 cupolas (basically a T-34 buried up to the turret). I spent a good 15 turns hammering that hunk of iron before it finally went belly up! In fact, after a few turns, I just bypassed it and left some Spec Ops and engineers to keep up the effort.

Bill · Post by **Bill** » Fri Nov 17, 2000 12:09 pm

Overall the robustness of pillboxes is probably about right - from the front and sides. But how about from the rear? What about some kind of experience check that a pillbox surrenders if infantry, particularly enginneers are behind it?

Bill

Hauptmann6 · Post by **Hauptmann6** » Fri Nov 17, 2000 3:34 pm

Although not modeled in the game, german plans for pillboxes(yes, they have numbered types for everything) all include a MG loop for a MG34/42 in the read near the door. And for larger pillboxes 2 meters of reinforced concrete was concidered the minimum thickness for the roof and the walls. And depending on the type of fort it could be much more than that.

Haupt

JNL · Post by **JNL** » Fri Nov 17, 2000 4:54 pm

Slapping a fortification with indirect fire -then close assaulting with Eng Units/bazooka armed units is the preferred method of removing them for me.

The costly part of this process is finding them - usually by a AFV brew up or 4 or 5 men from a squad getting blown off the map. Driving up to any side of a fortification and blasting away with the main gun seemed to do nothing but use ammo and frustrate me. So I stopped doing it. Most of my time is spent playing US - so most often main gun AFV would have been ineffective anyway. I would guess that you would have a greater chance of success if you used a 75/L70 or 88/L56 or better - but anything below the power of those guns would probably be a waste of time.

I actually don't mind running into them too much any more. You can flank them (usually) and that renders them as ineffective as blowing them up. I tend to nuke them all however - just for the victory points and experience points.

Word to the wise - WB tends to drop a minefield on the blind side of them in his scenarios. (I can still remember losing a couple of AFV to them in the Boccage Scenario in "From Utah to the Rhine" campaign - sneaky bugger!)

Warhorse · Post by **Warhorse** » Fri Nov 17, 2000 5:02 pm

They are very intimidating, but not invincible, for instance, in my Hungarian campaign, my first battle against the Soviets. I bought the MG nests,(3), and 3 of the redoubt, (I think, the rectangular large ones), I was able to knock out 2 of them, after many hits with...the Toldi I main gun..20mm ATR!!!! No kidding, so it can be done

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Mike Amos
Meine Ehre Heisst Treue

rexmonday · Post by **rexmonday** » Sun Nov 19, 2000 6:24 am

You want a nasty pillbox - have a look at the turreted one in the Betio scenario. Mean critters - they have a 360 arc of fire, so no sneaking up on the blindside with these boys. Smoke will blind them somewhat, but if you do try use an engineer squad it will get spotted at 1 hex range 90% of the time and get cut up by machinegun fire. The best I could come up with against these fortresses was to keep sniping at them until I knocked out the main gun through turret hits. They make other pillboxes look like a doddle.

BA Evans · Post by **BA Evans** » Mon Nov 20, 2000 9:21 pm

Another hint: Never shoot at something with armor (tanks, pillboxes) from less than three hexes away. Once you get within three hexes, the armor values start to get really really high because of the angles involved. If you want to shoot the pillbox, do so from at least three hexes away.

It is best to blind the pillbox with smoke rounds and then move an engineer unit to the rear. Flamethrowers = crispy critters.

BA Evans

john g · Post by **john g** » Mon Nov 20, 2000 10:20 pm

Slapping a fortification with indirect fire -then close assaulting with Eng Units/bazooka armed units is the preferred method of removing them for me.

Most of my time is spent playing US - so most often main gun AFV would have been ineffective anyway. I would guess that you would have a greater chance of success if you used a 75/L70 or 88/L56 or better - but anything below the power of those guns would probably be a waste of time.

I actually don't mind running into them too much any more. You can flank them (usually) and that renders them as ineffective as blowing them up. I tend to nuke them all however - just for the victory points and experience points.

Amen to just bypassing any forification that you come across and don't absolutely need to destroy. With a chance for a gun breakdown with every shot you fire and ammo supplies sometimes very limited, it is easier to just not kill the fort and go for the mobile units and victory hexes. Any unit that you can bypass without fighting is one less possible chance for the ai to shoot at you. The key to getting 30-1 or 40-1 victory margins isn't how many of them you kill, but how few of you that they kill.
thanks, John.

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Tue Nov 21, 2000 2:09 am

Some good points for thought, John...WB

------------------
In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Coordinator, Scenario Design
Matrix Games

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Tue Nov 21, 2000 2:09 am

Some good points for thought, John...WB

------------------
In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Coordinator, Scenario Design
Matrix Games

skukko · Post by **skukko** » Tue Nov 21, 2000 4:04 am

My opinion of destroying bunkers goes with thoughts already said here, but I'll use this tricky method: Mg34's fire at the front of the bunker to get ít pinned(reduces coming casualties). Fire smoke with Tank to blind it and walk front of it with the infantry. Best score is blowing tenmens bunker with six handgranades, from front, where bunkers have their weak point: hole from where they shoot. If granades don't work I try satchel or flamethrowers, but usually smoke rounds are only I use. Once,just once my Tiger have killed AT-bunker with one shot. (in 'Moment of thruth'-scenario) I mean,-job can be done in many ways.

JNL · Post by **JNL** » Tue Nov 21, 2000 12:29 pm

I've been slogging thru Russian defensive lines in the Watchword Freedom Campaign now for a couple of days. (Well worth the download if you haven't gotten yet.) I've found that the Tiger's main gun is a quite adequate bunker buster. I've had good success so far zapping those concrete nasties from 6 to 8 hexes away with 2 to 4 Tigers.
US Army units usually require a set piece attack - so far with the German units I've been able to pretty much bludgeon pillboxes and fortifications as they pop up. Even the dreaded Anti-Tank Pillboxes have fallen in a turn or two to a platoon of Tigers in overwatch mode. I would have never thought of dueling with a fortification driving a Sherman. A group of Tigers hasn't had too much trouble with an isolated bunker or two.

That being said - I still feel that when the chips are down the only sure fire method is Arty/Smoke/engineer close assualt.

GrinningDwarf · Post by **GrinningDwarf** » Tue Nov 21, 2000 3:17 pm

Originally posted by john g:
Amen to just bypassing any forification that you come across and don't absolutely need to destroy...Any unit that you can bypass without fighting is one less possible chance for the ai to shoot at you. The key to getting 30-1 or 40-1 victory margins isn't how many of them you kill, but how few of you that they kill.
thanks, John.

Ain't that the truth? My Betio scenario came out a draw because even though I possessed all of the victory hexes at the end, the game was a third over before I realized I didn't need to take out all the shoreline bunkers. Once I was past them, they wouldn't hurt me any more and there was no second wave coming in behind me to protect. Even is there had been a second wave, the thing to do would have been to get past the bunkers and get on those victory hexes. I took way too many casualties against the bunkers for too little gain.

Kluckenbill · Post by **Kluckenbill** » Tue Nov 21, 2000 5:43 pm

Originally posted by BA Evans:
Another hint: Never shoot at something with armor (tanks, pillboxes) from less than three hexes away. Once you get within three hexes, the armor values start to get really really high because of the angles involved. If you want to shoot the pillbox, do so from at least three hexes away.

It is best to blind the pillbox with smoke rounds and then move an engineer unit to the rear. Flamethrowers = crispy critters.

BA Evans

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Target, Cease Fire !

Lou · Post by **Lou** » Tue Nov 21, 2000 8:09 pm

In George Wilson's book, *If You Survive*, he speaks about coming upon German pillboxes along the Siegfried (sp?) line. He made a reference to a special round for the Long Tom that was designed to fire point blank into the pillbox/fortification. Egads!

Lou

robot · Post by **robot** » Tue Nov 21, 2000 8:43 pm

I play germans in long campaign and this is how i deal with pill boxes. When located i back off and pin with tanks. I then bring up a couple anti tank 88s. They can blast thru mosr bunkers. If they are having trouble getting the job done i then let my engineers circle them and nuke them. Fry there butt.

Kluckenbill · Post by **Kluckenbill** » Tue Nov 21, 2000 11:38 pm

Originally posted by BA Evans:
Another hint: Never shoot at something with armor (tanks, pillboxes) from less than three hexes away. Once you get within three hexes, the armor values start to get really really high because of the angles involved. If you want to shoot the pillbox, do so from at least three hexes away.

BA Evans

For some reason my typing didn't show up the first time??

Anyway, I too have noticed this situation and thought it was just an odd coincidence. It does really seem to be harder to penetrate from very close range. One explanation I have been given is that the closeness of the target increases the angle of attack when the firing unit and target are at different elevations. Otherwise I'm at a loss to figure out why this happens.

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Target, Cease Fire !