What to do when you can not win the BOA as Allies

[stjeand]

Before you say...but you are supposed to let me explain.

There is something off in the one of the games I am playing.
It is currently Feb 1940.

Allies Losses are 35 MM and 13 Escorts
Germans has take 0 hits to their subs.

NOW I have done all that is expected of the Allies...CVs and DDs in the lanes, Escorts spread North / South...but still nothing.

So clearly either my luck is that I roll snake eyes everytime or something is off.
I am sure something is off. The Uboats appear to be basically invisible to anything.
Every turn the Uboats are out 2 Escorts are sunk. So building escorts appears to be a waste of time and PP.
Average MM destroyed is 3 to 4. So building MM seems to be the same.

SO with that being said...I have to win on the land. Clearly this will be a huge issue by the end of 1940 since more than likely the UK will be close to being out of MM. So their oil and resources will be crippled.
USSR will have to stand without lend lease...

So it will be up to France to slow the German hoard and the US to come to their rescue at some point.

I think taking Italy out early would be bad...as it would just end up being more points for the Germans as there is no way that the UK alone can hold it.

I know it will require a huge all in on Africa...

Can anyone think of any interesting strategies to try?

[Harrybanana]

If you are splitting your escorts between the North and South then you are doing something wrong unless you have 20+ escorts. You should never put less than 9 (and preferably 10+) escorts into any zone prior to obtaining 42 or 43 tech; and by then you should have enough escorts to put 10+ in every zone anyway. If you have less than 20 escorts (which is probably the case early in the War) then you want to put them all in one zone and put 0 in the other. You will not lose anymore MS doing this, but you will significantly increase your chances of getting more hits on the U-Boats while having less escorts sunk. If you only put, for example, 7 escorts into a zone than your odds of getting a U-Boat hit are very small. It is much more likely that escorts will be sunk without getting any hits. Even if I have 18 escorts I would probably put them all in one zone rather than 9 in each.

[stjeand]

First off thanks Harry for responding...

It does make more sense top keep 10 in a zone...
Sadly I was only able to do that for 3 turns...then I no longer had 10 Escorts and they take 4 months to build.
Turn 1 3 Escorts sunk, down to 12 and ONLY in the South Atlantic if you want 10
Turn 2 2 Escorts sunk, down to 10 and ONLY in the South Atlantic if you want 10
Turn 3 1 Escort sunk, down to 9.

If you put none in a zone then your ships can sit in port as they have no effect.

So do you not bother putting them out when you get to this point?
I understand that you will have less chance to damage a UBoat...that makes complete sense. But to add I had 2 CV and 3 DD travelling each zone. Yes not great odds still but not sure what you can do when by October 39 you can't have 10 Escorts anywhere.

I will have to try this next time.

Sadly I think I am losing 4 MS per turn so...not sure how long it will last.

[Harrybanana]

Losing 4 MS a turn is not bad at all. Canada can build an escort every 2nd turn. The UK can build 2 escorts on one turn (80 production) and 10 MS (100 production) on the next turn. This is an average of 1.5 escorts and 5 MS every turn. Admittedly it will take several months before they will make an appearance. In the meantime you should not use your escorts until you have 10 of them at least.

[Nirosi]

The 5 escorts in three turns seems very strange early on. I did lose 5-6 once over the first 6 months and that was very harsh to catch-up after but it did happen only once and never again even close (probably a statistical fluke I hope).

But the 4 MS per turn is quite normal and very manageable. Allies (all countries together) can lose 450+ MS by mid 44 and still be strong enough start punishing the Axis. This assuming of coure that the Soviets did OK on their side. 4 MS are the same price as repairing 6 steps of a 1940 inf. If the German can not reach a 4 MMS per turn average, seems to me that would be a major UK victory for the BOA! 4 MS a turn will not win the BOA for the Axis unless the UK starts too late to buy MS. They should be priority at start with escort. UK does not need a huge army in 1940 to survive or even keep Egypt, but it does need a huge merchant fleet.

[kennonlightfoot]

Seems that kind of production just for the BoA (Escort every turn, Merchant every other turn) would cripple the UK militarily. I don't see how they can also produce enough land and air units to protect England from invasion and hold the Middle East while keeping up that Escort and Merchant production level. UK+Canada average production per turn is only around 190 threw 1940. That build rate would require all their production capacity leaving nothing to rebuild loses (especially air) from Battle of France. The UK also starts with a large number of understrength units that require production to get up to full strength.

[Harrybanana]

ORIGINAL: kennonlightfoot

Seems that kind of production just for the BoA (Escort every turn, Merchant every other turn) would cripple the UK militarily. I don't see how they can also produce enough land and air units to protect England from invasion and hold the Middle East while keeping up that Escort and Merchant production level. UK+Canada average production per turn is only around 190 threw 1940. That build rate would require all their production capacity leaving nothing to rebuild loses (especially air) from Battle of France. The UK also starts with a large number of understrength units that require production to get up to full strength.

The UK starts with a surplus of MS and receives more if the Axis invade Norway and/or the Netherlands. So from September 1939 until the Spring or early Summer of 1940 the UK can usually scrape by without having to build any MS or escorts. This gives them time to build an armour, a mechanized, some infantry divisions and start fleshing out the understrength units they start the game with. This should give them a large enough army (barely) to defend the Middle East and the UK. But from the Spring or early summer of 1940 on almost all of their production will need to go towards MS and escorts. Read my AAR with MM. Of course, a lot depends on how many U-Boats the Axis build. In my example the U-Boats were only sinking 4 MS per turn, so building an MS every 2nd turn is enough. But if the Axis start sinking 10 MS per turn then the UK will need to build an MS every turn along with escorts.

[sillyflower]

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

if the Axis start sinking 10 MS per turn then the UK will need to build an MS every turn along with escorts.

How??? Game won't let you do that due to lack of shipyards, even if you can afford to spend 140 PPs (just over 70% of your allocation) every turn on the BoA. The real BoA did not cost anything like that % of the UK war effort

[stjeand]

Yes found that out last turn. I have to wait for the BB and CV to build.

Last turn 10 MS sunk...and with 0 escorts for the next 6+ months since I should not put any out till I have 10...I suspect I will lose about 100 MS...Current average is 2 MS per sub per turn they are at sea. That average is crazy high. I, as a German often hit 0. That has yet to happen in this game.
The UK is already on the edge of being out of extra MS. Actually they may be at this time...if France falls they will for sure.

A smart German playing, winning the BOA, does not invade Norway or the Netherlands.
And so far he has not. Just got two clear turns in March and invaded Belguim but they held and heavy rains have bogged the Germans down there.
Norway seems to be a thing of the past now...I have not played anyone that has bothered with it any more. Gaining 1PP and a resource is just not worth the 3 Corps it takes to hold them.
Once the USSR arrives it would be nice to move your navy up there and sink MS going...but if the UK have 0 MS it won't matter.

I have been spending all the Canadian money making escorts. That is 1 a month.
The UK built one set of MS but now can't build without increasing shipyards...and that takes months another month at least. By then I expect to be down 20 to 30 MS required...and if France happens to fall even more.

Sadly even building 10 MS per turn will not help since that is what is not being sunk each turn.
I need to build 20 or 30 and that is not possible once half the MS are lost.

After last turn...I believe...

45 MS sunk, all but 2 escorts sunk. 0 hits on the Uboats of which there are now 5 patrolling the lanes.


I am not upset...just something is wrong when 2 turns I lost 6 MS and 3 Escorts each and am out of escorts by April of 1940

I have played a lot of games and never have I lost all my escorts in 6 months.
Usually 3 to 5 are lost at most and even that is high.


Here is to hoping I can stop the Germans on land in France.

[stjeand]

And Harry THANKS for your input.

Every little bit is helpful as I navigate the Allies.

In my 30 years of wargames...I RARELY if ever played them so was always on the other end.

My first game here as them has been a disaster as I had completely forgotten everything you are supposed to do. Playing catch up is NEVER good.



But in this game here...other issues have come up.
Lets see if his sinking of 10 MS per turn continues.

[Harrybanana]

ORIGINAL: sillyflower

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

if the Axis start sinking 10 MS per turn then the UK will need to build an MS every turn along with escorts.

How??? Game won't let you do that due to lack of shipyards, even if you can afford to spend 140 PPs (just over 70% of your allocation) every turn on the BoA. The real BoA did not cost anything like that % of the UK war effort

The Germans are also restricted in how many U-Boats they can build until the Bismark completes. So it is unlikely that the UK will be losing an average of 10 MS per turn until late 1940 at the earliest. By this time the UK CV will have completed construction. My experience is that not all German U-Boats are in action every turn because they have to resupply and repair the occasional hit. They also only do half damage if they move more than 24 hexes. So overall U-Boats only average approximately 1 MS sunk per built U-Boat. This can be increased if the German builds oilers, but than that weakens Barbarossa. Also the average can vary considerably from game to game and from month to month within the same game.

I agree with you that historically the UK did not spend such a high percentage of its production on the BOA. But at the same time they also did not have as large an army as the game allows them to have by mid 1940. In my experience the force size of the UK army is at around 550 by June 1940 (if no losses in France). The German army is usually only at around 1000 or so. So I believe Alvaro's way to balance this is to require the UK to spend more on the BOA than historical.

[kennonlightfoot]

Canada can't produce one escort per turn unless the UK sends them production points.
Right now it looks like the UK has to produce merchants as fast as they can within their shipyard limitations to have enough coming on line in late 40 to compensate for losses. By that time the German's will have six active subs and because of their much shorter production times will have it up to 9 by mid 41.

My problems as the Allies is that this kind of merchant/escort production level means that the UK can't bring their forces up to full strength and produce the extra units needed to hold Egypt. So the UK ends up having to choose between keeping their oil and production supplies from the Middle East or winning the BoA.

And it doesn't help that with my luck in BoA, I will probably lose both.[&:]

[Harrybanana]

Did someone say that Canada can build an escort per turn? If so, it wasn't me. Canada can only build an escort every 2nd turn. But this is what it should be doing from September 39 until there are at least 20 UK escorts. I disagree that the UK can't build MS (starting in April 40 or so) and still build up its units to full strength. In my AAR I did both of these and even built an armour, a mech, several divisions and lots of supply trucks. Of course the UK can't do this if it loses a lot of air or army in France. So it has to play conservative in France and make sure it gets most of its units out safely.

The UK starts with an excess of merchant ships, so it can afford to lose about 80 (more if Norway or the Netherlands are invaded) before production is affected. And I am not saying that the U-Boats won't sink enough MS at some point to reduce production. But the goal is to minimize this as much as possible.

[ncc1701e]

Also UK gains MMs from Denmark, Belgium, Netherlands, Norway. Nothing from France by the way once France is out of the game?

[Nirosi]

I know it gets the French escorts. I therefore assumed that the MMs too and never really checked.

[stjeand]

Well I can finally start building MS...but I am not sure it is going to be useful.

Last turn I got a break...only 5 MS sunk. This turn 3 subs sand 11.
Now I have played a lot of games...NEVER in my life have I sunk 11 MS unless it was the entire German Surface fleet. Yes I have sunk 5 or 6...but that is the max and never in 1940.

Strangely I think he had already won the BOA...but attacked Norway so I got 48 MS...
I suspect that before I get my first set of MS the UK will be under 100 MS...and getting 10 per turn but losing 10+ won't work.

But based upon the above info that is 3 turns worth of subs. He has half the fleet in port this turn or who knows how many MS would have been sunk.


So current totals...July 5th 1940

73 MS Sunk
12 Escorts sunk

1 hit on the subs and that was from an air unit.

If he had not attacked Norway I would have been down 30 PP this turn and in 2 months could not afford to build an MS each turn.


Also it is clear there is a bug...it stated he sunk 2 escorts but I only have 1 French escort there...since it will disappear. And it is still afloat.


This is getting interesting.

[Harrybanana]

ORIGINAL: stjeand

Well I can finally start building MS...but I am not sure it is going to be useful.

Why can you only start building MS in July 1940? You should have enough shipyards to build at least 1 before this. I assume it is because you were using the UK shipyards to build escorts. Not necessarily a bad idea, but I prefer to use the Canadians to build escorts.

Last turn I got a break...only 5 MS sunk. This turn 3 subs sand 11.
Now I have played a lot of games...NEVER in my life have I sunk 11 MS unless it was the entire German Surface fleet. Yes I have sunk 5 or 6...but that is the max and never in 1940.

I agree that I have never seen 3 subs sink 11 MS in a single turn. I think my record was 8 or 9. But I do believe that Alvaro has worked something into the game that the U-Boats will sink on average less MS per sub each year of the War after 1940; even if the Subs in later years have higher tech. That has been my experience anyway.

Strangely I think he had already won the BOA...but attacked Norway so I got 48 MS...
I suspect that before I get my first set of MS the UK will be under 100 MS...and getting 10 per turn but losing 10+ won't work.

But based upon the above info that is 3 turns worth of subs. He has half the fleet in port this turn or who knows how many MS would have been sunk.


So current totals...July 5th 1940

73 MS Sunk
12 Escorts sunk

1 hit on the subs and that was from an air unit.

Are all 73 MS British, or are some French? In my AAR against MM I had sunk a total of 63 MS by July 5, 1940; and that was after having one of my U-Boats sunk by air attack. So 73 MS sunk by July 5, 1940 sounds about right. Where you have been extremely unlucky is in losing 12 escorts and only getting 1 sub hit. But again, I think you will find that if in the future you concentrate your escorts so that you always use 10+ per zone you will do better.

If he had not attacked Norway I would have been down 30 PP this turn and in 2 months could not afford to build an MS each turn.

I don't understand this. The UK starts with over 200 MS and only needs 127 to move all its resources. So even if all 73 MS sunk were British that would still leave you with 127+ which should be enough to carry all your production even without the Norwegian MS. The exception would be if you have already invaded Iraq and are also shipping its oil. Can you post a screen shot of your Forces and Casualties?

Also it is clear there is a bug...it stated he sunk 2 escorts but I only have 1 French escort there...since it will disappear. And it is still afloat.

This is getting interesting.

I think this is a known bug that the last French escort is unsinkable.

[stjeand]

Harry...again thank you for your insight.

I do believe in my calculations I have messed up with the MS numbers for the UK due to France.
I do not think I was counting the French escorts...I will verify how many next turn. 5 more sunk last turn, but all French at the moment since I shut off the British convoy as a test. It appears that the subs get to attack each separately. That I did not know.

One MS is being built in the UK so that is why only this turn. But if I am going to lose 10 per turn...the cost 100PP to gain 10PP for one turn does not work out in UKs favor, except they may be able to keep even if they lose only 10 per turn. I guess that is a "win".

What I am lost in is I have YET to have a game that I never hit 0 MS in a turn. That happens at least 2 or 3 turns during 39 alone and a few times in 40 for sure.
Even just started a new game...and 0 MS hit on turn 1 which seems to be about 50% of the time for me.
But in this game that has never happened.

Canada is building escorts only. But it will take until near 41 to get enough escorts to be at 10 again. At this time I only have 4.

Turn 1 I did have 10 escorts in one zone..forget which. But losing 3 escorts turn 1 and 2 on turn 2 and 3 on turn 3 meant that 10 was no longer possible in any zone. I have left the 1 escort out in the SA for the French since that will go away in a couple months...so long as I can hold out in France longer.
He is down to 3 Armor with 10 strength and possibly a new build somewhere...but has kept me from shattering any which is good.

[baloo7777]

I am stjeand's pbem opponent in this game. What he hasn't said was I have found 3 British Armor Corps (WDF + 2 new ones) AND a British Mech Corps and 4 large British Infantry Corps at full strength in 1940 France at this same time (early July '40)... along with the French Armor Corps, all counterattacking together I have lost time and a German Inf Corps... and the French Air Force has mauled the German Air Force with almost no use of British Air (quite historical, right?). If he had put the same PP's he used for the armor in France into MM's and Escorts, he would be in a different place in the BOA.
I invaded Norway as I base a Naval Air Tac there to deter British Fleets from stopping my use of raiders to damage the MM's going to Russia in '41/42. But that is my choice and is considered on the fact that I believe the war is won or lost on the Eastern Front. I do it always, whether it's a great strategy or not.
If this game were a simulation or closer (than the fantasy it really is), do you really believe the Allies would have a French Air Force that is equal to the Germans (with 2 extra german air units-5 air Superiority to 3). Of course not... many Axis players won't even use their air as the 6-4 Allied Air units are ridiculous in the damage they cause the Luftwaffe. Do you think the Allies could have fielded 5 Corps of Armor that could have blunted any German Armor spearhead??? In 1944, sure... in 1940??? Complete fantasy. Makes for a solid, playable game... but it has no real relationship to WW2 except that its in Europe and its 1939-45. Otherwise, the Allies would have almost unlimited PP's after the USA adds its economic might, and no play balance.

[stjeand]

baloo7777

I am glad you liked my present. Surprise

I did focus on land forces in France due to the inability to build any MS or Escorts in the UK until mid 40. Normally I build some air units to bomb the subs...but I could not hit them with anything...so changed my strategy to try to delay the Germans in France to allow the UK to have some sort of recovery. Not sure it was a wise strategy...your play into France looks pretty close to mine yet I have a LOT of armor to punch back. Hopefully your units are getting worn. I know the armor is...but then mine is starting to wear down too.

I am hoping to hold out until Sept...which will keep the Germans from being able to attack Yugo and Greece. If not I will have to pull back and refocus and hope that the USSR can hold fast.

The UK built an MS as soon as I saw how badly it was going and then they are unable to build any more naval units until the Illustrious CV arrives. Now I can build them. But my PP was already being affected by the BOA. Canada has been building Escorts from day one...1 finally arrives last turn but they take SO long that I will not have 10 until 1941. And based on current losses the UK will be under 100 MS by then...but we will see.
My usual build with the UK is a heavy bomber (detection), UK armor then a couple Inf...then by end of 39 I can gauge how the BOA is going...to see what to build. Sadly by then the escorts were all gone so I could not longer defend the MS...So I switched it up to see if I could hammer the Axis armor with UK armor. So far they have held...but not gained what I would have liked but am still holding fast. Should take the Germans at least another month to take France...if I get lucky rain will hamper...but have to get to Sept...not sure they can make it...

Whenever I attack France as the Axis they devastate my airforce too...In the mirror game the Axis airforce is in shambles...will take till 41 to recover. But I did get through France much faster. I believe every Fighter was under 10 in str as were 2 level bombers. Not sure how the UK airforce is there but looked close to what mine looks like in this one.

The UK airforce has been damaged for sure...maybe not in the state of the Germans...but not in great shape.
One thing I have started is NOT using air in Poland due to losses. I sometimes lose 6 to 8 air there...the cost to replace is far to high for my taste.
I do believe that the German airforce is very underpowered early...but I have also had a game or two that they do very well.

But this thread was on the BOA...and my points were only that I was surprised you invaded Norway but I FULLY understand the strategy due to the flow of the BOA now.
Hopefully you will attack the Netherlands because I really need more MS.

And yes the Axis wins on the Eastern Front that is certain but they have to get through France first.

But we shall continue.

At least in the mirror game the 2 - 4 hits per turn on my subs stopped. It did cost the Germans 200PP though to get where they are there now.

The battles continue.