Doolittle Raid?

[LowesyPC]

I bet this has been asked 1million times, but is the Doolittle raid possible?

[Jellicoe]

No it isn't and it would have no effect on the game in any practicable terms even if it did. Morale of the American population is not a concern!

[LowesyPC]

Makes a lot of sense. But my morale is damaged. I don't if I have the will to carry on the fight...

[Jellicoe]

ORIGINAL: LowesyPC

Makes a lot of sense. But my morale is damaged. I don't if I have the will to carry on the fight...

Drink Beer

And by this I mean a proper British beer not some lightweight ersatz lager. A pint of strong dark Bomber Command or a Rother Valley or maybe an Old Dairy Red Top should do the trick

[LowesyPC]

Ah I see you too are a man of fine taste then sir.

[Sardaukar]

Interestingly, Doolittle Raid had big strategic impact.

As Shattered Sword tells, it caused IJA to reverse it's refusal to participate into Midway operation. So, there were deep psychological impact, which caused strategic implications and let loose Yamamoto's very poorly planned operation MI (and even more flawed operation AL in Aleutians).

[Ian R]

Indeed, it caused the IJN/IJA to seek to expand the defensive perimeter to include Midway and Attu (IIRC), to extend the air-range buffer. Add a tablespoon of victory disease, and a stiff pour of code breaking - plus just a pinch of broken catapult on a CA - and the recipe for disaster was in the stew pot.

[LowesyPC]

ORIGINAL: Ian R

Indeed, it caused the IJN/IJA to seek to expand the defensive perimeter to include Midway and Attu (IIRC), to extend the air-range buffer. Add a tablespoon of victory disease, and a stiff pour of code breaking - plus just a pinch of broken catapult on a CA - and the recipe for disaster was in the stew pot.

That's one hell of a recipe

[Ian R]

Drachinifel reckons that if the Tone's catapault had worked and that search launched on time, it would have missed the US carriers by 20 minutes anyway and passed south of them.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: Jellicoe

ORIGINAL: LowesyPC

Makes a lot of sense. But my morale is damaged. I don't if I have the will to carry on the fight...

Drink Beer

And by this I mean a proper British beer not some lightweight ersatz lager. A pint of strong dark Bomber Command or a Rother Valley or maybe an Old Dairy Red Top should do the trick

This will work ...

[Alpha77]

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Interestingly, Doolittle Raid had big strategic impact.

As Shattered Sword tells, it caused IJA to reverse it's refusal to participate into Midway operation. So, there were deep psychological impact, which caused strategic implications and let loose Yamamoto's very poorly planned operation MI (and even more flawed operation AL in Aleutians).

So the dumb Japanese did not figure out, that this B25 attack was a "one off shot" even without any climax? And that it could not be done often at all and even if the danger to the enemy carriers would be greater than the effect of some perhaps 20 B25 bombers?

If you "emergency load" a CV w/ 2E land bombers then how much space is left there for normal CV planes esp. anti ASW and CAP planes? Seems like such a CV is an easy picking...[;)] A normal loaded CV would be more dangerous as it can sink important shipping which a B25 could do not (perhaps only special trained units or ships sitting still)

[HansBolter]

The Enterprise provided escorts CAP for the mission.

I have no idea if they reconfigured the air squadrons to put more fighters aboard to compensate for the lack of them aboard Hornet.

[Alpha77]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

The Enterprise provided escorts CAP for the mission.

I have no idea if they reconfigured the air squadrons to put more fighters aboard to compensate for the lack of them aboard Hornet.

Ah of course, so they had 2 CVs away from more important missions for sending 16 B25s on a more or less symbolic mission [X(]

I am guessing the bombload was reduced too to get more range ? So only the stupid Japanese who totally over reacted to a handful of bombs falling on Tokio safed this sortie to have some value at all.

Even if Japan was at war now for a longer time they did fear that another 16 B25s could show up a month later? So much for the "fearlessness" of the Japanese [:D]

I am reading more about this raid now, for sure curious stuff. Also read at the end of mission the TF "raced" to assist in the battle of coral sea but came too late?

So if these 2 CVs were present in the area these might have given the IJN a bloody nose perhaps simmilar to Midway months earlier...[:-]

[Alpha77]

So if a movie is made about this I can picture the scene after the attack:

"We need to extend our defensive perimeter due to a deadly attack by 16 B25s!!!!"

"But sir, we do not have the men or material for this...."

"We NEED to take Midway it can be a staging point for further dedaly raids were 50% of the industry in Tokio was destroyed"

"......what...? They did not hit much of importance, sir. And Midway is way to far to support it over longer time even IF we manage to occupy this distant small island"

"I even have a better idea, we make a clever plan to also threated the Aleutians to distract them!!"

"..but our forces hardly are able to cover what we have now and I would not weaken the Midway o....."

"Admiral!! You are clearly a coward. I do not believe you belong here, please leave the room..."

"I must protest, even IF the Americans send another such Doolittle raid, this is clearly in our favour as the CVs they need to use for it then would be missing in more important areas. So in fact this raid favours us if we just stay on course and do not fear a handful of bombs that do not hit much anyways! We can also lay a trap to sink the CVs which have B25s on board and therefore less CAP fighters! This is a great opportunity!"

Emperor interupts:

"Admiral, the general was right you NOW leave this conference! And you then go command the 2 subchasers at Port Arthur. This raid interupted my sleep"

[:D]

Sounds a bit like the Nazis changing their course and which finally lead to them losing the BOB. They were finally able to weaken the RAF when they attacked air bases and tried to lure them into air battles shooting down more RAF fighters.

But when Churchill sent some Wellingtons to bomb Berlin it is said Herr Hitler was so outraged (or scarred?) that he ordered from now on UK cities should be hit. So RAF regenerated itself and won.

Seems the "Axis leaders" were more like frightened schoolchildren

[Alpha77]

I use Wiki as source if one of you has a better one and thinks Wiki is wrong please post and correct!

"Unknown to the Japanese, the U.S. Navy, led by the Communication Security Section of the Office of Naval Communications, had for several years enjoyed some success with penetrating Japanese communication ciphers and codes. By March 1942, the U.S. was able to decipher up to 15% of the IJN's Ro or Naval Codebook D code (called "JN-25B" by the U.S.), which was used by the IJN for approximately half of its communications. By the end of April, the U.S. was reading up to 85% of the signals broadcast in the Ro code.[12]

In March 1942, the U.S. first noticed mention of the MO operation in intercepted messages. On 5 April, the U.S. intercepted an IJN message directing a carrier and other large warships to proceed to Inoue's area of operations. On 13 April, the British deciphered an IJN message informing Inoue that the Fifth Carrier Division, consisting of the fleet carriers Shōkaku and Zuikaku, was en route to his command from Formosa via the main IJN base at Truk. The British passed the message to the U.S., along with their conclusion that Port Moresby was the likely target of MO.[13]"

- Okay, so it was 3/1942 the first warning signs of this offensive were detected..and this was also the time the Doolittle raid was planned/prepared.

"When planning indicated that the B-25 was the aircraft that best met all of the requirements of the mission, two were loaded aboard the aircraft carrier USS Hornet at Norfolk, Virginia, and were flown off the deck without difficulty on 3 February 1942."

- Ok 2/1942 the plans were tested in practice....

Wonder why the Doolittle raid was not cancelled when late 3/1942 more signs of the IJN operation "MO" were deciphered - as most know this lead to the battle of coral sea.
Which was in general inconclusive but PM was safed cause, Japs again to scarred to follow through the plan.Even if PM is way more important than eg. Midway or an icy island in the Aleutians. For which they risked later much more for much less...

Did the planners think 16xB25 scattering some bombs over Tokio were more important then to deal a decissive blow to the IJN which would have been possible with 2 more CVs - those that were sent on the raid!

Or did Doolil´say: "Nahh not important at all, I wanna get a medal this is what counts"

Also funny the code named JN-25B - just like the bomber type used [;)]
And they named the OP "MO" for Moresby or what? Is this not a bit obvious[&:]

[BBfanboy]

After the defeats around the Philippines and the DEI, and loss of many US ships, Roosevelt needed a way to boost civilian morale to ensure the war effort was supported. Too much US defeatism would give the Japanese what they wanted - an end to the war on favourable terms to them. In that sense the political aims of the Doolittle raid were worth the effort and losses.

I am not so sure that PM was more strategically important than Midway. From Midway, Japan could base subs and patrol aircraft that would isolate PH before it could be built strong enough to push back. Further, Midway could be a refueling stop for a TF raiding the US West Coast or even invading. The invasion scare of December 1941 was not yet eliminated because the USN had not achieved any great victories to show that the Japanese could not approach the coast.

Losing PM would give the Japanese a great recon and bomber base to interdict NW Australia. But the US was getting well established in Noumea and the area in between would have been the new crucible for Guadalcanal-like grinding. Auckland, Melbourne and Sydney would have been well positioned to support the battles - the Japanese would only have PM - no shipyard closer than Soerabaja or Singapore. Invasion of Oz? Possible, but would have required withdrawal of IJA assets from China/Burma area which was their real objective (capturing resources there).

[Alpha77]

@BBfanboy:

I remember discussions about IJ taking PH not only here also in another forum and it was largely dismissed as practical or possible. Not only cause of the defenses but more for the distance to any larger IJ base. And the same goes for Midway, this is far to away from bigger bases. It would be impossible to maintain a bigger force there without re-directing many assets from more important theaters. This leaves us with a smaller more token force but this could be just blockaded and left to their own devices or retaken from PH one of the biggest bases on the whole map...

PM oth can be supported by flying over the mountain ranges, yes sending ships there is still risky they need to take a all the way around the Milne area (which needs to be taken too of course otherwise it threatens this line). IJ planes with their great ranges mostly could even CAP over PM from the bases on the other side of mountains/jungle. Also potentiell base size is bigger then Midway, playing the game should make this even clearer. I do not care much about Midway or Aleutians in my games (only if I want to invade Japan in the north)...

Also staging a "decissive battle" there like it is said as another reason, makes also no sense. The IJN could stage such a battle at places nearer to won bases, from where you get additional air/asw search and if your ships are damaged you have a nearer place to safe them. Ships heavily damaged at Midway are lost - no pöace near to go and patch em up at least somewhat. Same for planes if the CV is sunk or damaged planes are lost at Midway - no land in range to safe them.

Btw. here a pic from Wiki, showing B25 take off:



I see 3 or so curious things perhaps others too??

[Alpha77]

Surprised by these 2 photos, there were at least 3 fighters also on the flight deck. Man this looks totally cramped, what a feat that the B25 could take off!





Sorry the 2nd pic is so large... but look how near the planes are and the 2 fighters in the pic should they not be in the hangar or left at port [&:]
Are the 2 fighters in pic2 also F4 F3s? And note how the wing hangs over the deck. The last 2 B25 at the back seem also very in danger to fall from the deck[X(] Esp. with heavier sees I imagine.

[LargeSlowTarget]

The first picture shows indeed a Wildcat fighter, but the single engine planes in the second pic are Dauntless dive bombers. Maybe there wasn't enough space in the hangar deck to store all planes of Hornet's airgroup below, neither the -3 model Wildcats in service at the time of the Doolittle raid nor the SBDs having folding wings. How they managed to get those B-25s loaded with a ton of bombs and extra fuel airborne with a takeoff run of half a carrier deck - 150 yards or so? - is still beyond me.

[RangerJoe]

It wasn't just Tokyo (or Tokio) that was bombed but three other cities as well. These were supposed to be pinpoint bombing of industrial targets but at least one school and one hospital were bombed and possibly strafed - a violation of US orders. But the idea of the Home Islands being attacked was a shock to the Japanese. Even during the war, the public was given information about Japanese "victories" that kept coming closer and closer to Japan. The military fooled themselves with their faulty intelligence of what Allied ships were sunk by completely accepting what their pilots told them. I remember seeing a picture where it appeared that three Allied ships were hit and burning but only one ship was actually damaged and on fire, the smoke that appeared to be the other two ships burning was actually from two crashed aircraft.

There were a total of 16 US B-25B bombers but the plan was to launch them closer to Japan at a different time so the aircraft would then have the range to make it to airbases in China and land during daylight. Needless to state, the Chinese were not advised about this. But one of the aviators had his picture taken with Chairman Mao . . . [X(]

The USS Hornet kept its entire air complement on board and if the dreck hit the fan, the B-25s would have been shoved overboard. Yes, at least one of the bombers did have its tail over the water.

There is a PWM (Patriotic War Movie) about the raid:

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0037366/

One of the airmen who was a Japanese POW was brought back to the US and had mental health issues. He was in a psyche ward and until General Doolittle came to visit and raised Hell about his situation. He actually thought that it was all a Japanese plot to break him.