spotting

[LLv34Mika]

Hi

I have a question concerning spotting. Several times a HQ was attacked with the first plane taking off. I think two or three were destroyed so far. But that HQ is at least 6 - 7 HEX away from the next land unit. And no other plane tried to fly over the battlefield before the first bomber attacked. My fighters cover that HQ and would have intercepted the plane. Ok, my opponent would still see my units but at least not with the first unit he selects.

I think I have checked every unit. They all can increase their NAVAL spotting by upgrades but I have found no unit that has a land spotting range of 6 or more.

Any ideas?
Thanx in advance
Mika

[Taxman66]

Possibilities:
1. Spying & Intel unit reveal.
2. Knew it was there from previous turn and it didn't move.
3. Logical deduction as best place to put an HQ (this is a bit easier in the Libya - Iran theatre).
4. Cheating (hopefully not the case).

[LLv34Mika]

thank you... at least you had the same ideas as me
happened again and again in different locations. And no matter where the HQ was... in a town, in open field, a bit foward, a bit behind.

Well, I hope just lucky

[Bavre]

Fighters have land spotting 7 at max range tech and as every units gets its full sight range at its starting point and at the end of its first regular move one does not have to do an overflight. Just rebase your fighter near the front line, get vision and move back.
Also your opponent can see the supply levels of your frontline units. Often it is possible to calculate (or narrow down) the HQ's positions with that info.

[LLv34Mika]

I think I know how...

[LLv34Mika]

btw... was that always possible?

I used to play a lot three years ago but couldn't remember that. And to be honest: I'm not sure if I like it. As soon as a certain long range tech level is reached placing HQs even three or four HEXs behind the frontline is more or less suicide. The attacking side just punches away two or three units with ground forces, moves a fighter close to the front and gets the recon info and then the medium and tactical bombers placed behind the attacking units start their bombinb raids. Every HQ is doomed to death.

In fact I would prefer it that way that fighters do not increas their land spotting by upgrades. If you want to know what is behind the front line you will have to fly there. At least that gives you the chance to intercept fighters and every fighter can make only one sortie to get some recon information.

Would be easy to fix if you consider it a bug. As long as this "feature" is there everyone will have to use it and I can live with it. But to be honest... the other way is more realistic, less "gamey" and more balanced.

Not sure what our staff guys @bill / @hubert think about that...

[Bavre]

Afaik limiting air attacks per turn on a HQ is a common house rule...

[Taxman66]

Moving a fighter as described does remove its ability to perform any missions that offensive players turn.

[LLv34Mika]

but you need only one fighter to scout a big part of the frontline and you don't even have to "fly" there. You risk nothing, you can't get hit by AA, you can't get intercepted, you can not hit any random unit and be attacked by defensive AA weapons. Nothing.

Just not attacking with one unit is not really a big price.

[Taxman66]

Agreed.

There's not much that can be done. HQ'S can get lvl 3 AA, and you can park an AA unit next to them. That and favorable terrain (urban hexes with additional AA investment) is about it.

The bigger (related) issue is the ability to concentrate all the air power into one area; and if the axis invest into long range (easier for Germany than the allies until later in the war) they can stage far enough back such that they won't take reprisal attacks.

[Duedman]

In fact I would prefer it that way that fighters do not increas their land spotting by upgrades. If you want to know what is behind the front line you will have to fly there. At least that gives you the chance to intercept fighters and every fighter can make only one sortie to get some recon information.

Although I am using this mechanic extensively I would second that.
For example I never repair the Romanian fighter as Axis. He also never gets Combat upgrades. But what he gets is the range upgrades and orders to stay on the ground. Best scout there is.
And borderline gamey of course. A super weak low strength fighter spotting the whole front....

[LLv34Mika]

actually everyone is forced to do it. Otherwise you have a huge disadvantage.

Any opinion from our staff members/programmers?

Mika

[BillRunacre]

actually everyone is forced to do it. Otherwise you have a huge disadvantage.

Any opinion from our staff members/programmers?

Mika

Yes, I've made a note to consider making a change here.

[Elessar2]

A tangential issue, just wanted to put it here, may not require its own thread:

Allow fighter intercept ranges to be toggleable, from 1 to Max. An AAR I am following had the Axis player launch strikes against an empty sea hex on the French coast, which every Allied fighter duly intercepted-and lost every battle. IOW allow the non-active player to set his intercept ranges so he need only cover the units he needs to have an umbrella over.

[Sugar]

Spotting and Scouting are major parts of the Air Warfare. Change that, and you probably destroy the best part of the game; same applies to how the intercept mechanic works.

There are several opportunities for the defender to make best use of his defense assets; that`s jaut a matter of "know how", not of the intercept range,

[Duedman]

Spotting and Scouting are major parts of the Air Warfare. Change that, and you probably destroy the best part of the game; same applies to how the intercept mechanic works.

You really think flying a Fighter with long range 3 into a border hex should create a 4-hex-circle of vision without the slightest risk and without the enemy having any chance to prevent that?
It kinda negates the whole fog of war concept. It is almost never better to use the scouting flights designed by the game.

I think reducing this to max 2 Hexes would actually benefit the game (and as I said, I am currently using it all the time).

[Bavre]

A tangential issue, just wanted to put it here, may not require its own thread:

Allow fighter intercept ranges to be toggleable, from 1 to Max. An AAR I am following had the Axis player launch strikes against an empty sea hex on the French coast, which every Allied fighter duly intercepted-and lost every battle. IOW allow the non-active player to set his intercept ranges so he need only cover the units he needs to have an umbrella over.

While it looks a bit unusual to say the least, targeting empty hexes to draw out the enemy fighters is the only way to contest air supremacy without doing a pointless suicide attack on an enemy ground unit. I normally roleplay those as "fighter sweeps" from my wings to suppress/kill enemy fighters, which was a very common tactic.

[Sugar]

You really think flying a Fighter with long range 3 into a border hex should create a 4-hex-circle of vision without the slightest risk and without the enemy having any chance to prevent that?

I really do think both sides should be able to do at least some spotting passively, otherwise the side with Air Superiority could do as much scouting as wanted, but the inferior side couldn`t.

The next issue is you`re simply lacking a bit of abstraction: where there`s an air combat unit, there always are recon air units within. These units aren`t represented in this game specifically, which doesn`t mean they`re not existing at all.

Overall there`s already to few spotting in this game, the hole reason for the maritime combat to be so bad.

[LLv34Mika]

I really do think both sides should be able to do at least some spotting passively, otherwise the side with Air Superiority could do as much scouting as wanted, but the inferior side couldn`t.

The next issue is you`re simply lacking a bit of abstraction: where there`s an air combat unit, there always are recon air units within. These units aren`t represented in this game specifically, which doesn`t mean they`re not existing at all.

Overall there`s already to few spotting in this game, the hole reason for the maritime combat to be so bad.

Where would be the difference? The current spotting mechanics allow both sides to spot deeeeeeep inside enemy territory without risking anything. Thinking abstract doesn't help because you can't intercept any spotter. But the worst thing is that once the spotting is done every HQ is doomed to death. The only way to keep them safe is keeping them far behind the frontline --> low supply for many units and even less firepower.

The other way (less spotting or doing the fighter sweep thing into enemy territory still allows all that).

But when speaking of the poor naval spotting. Another idea here. How about increasing the spotting range for all units via anti-air tech and/or naval tech or advanced submarine tech? That would represent the radar technology of ships or the recon planes of cruisers/battleships that were on almost every big ships. I would highly appreciate that. At the moment sea battle is stumbling around in the dark.

[Duedman]

Current passive spotting is just way too powerful.
I loaded an old save with LR techlevel 4. Thats 6(!!!) hexes all around spotting (but no navel spotting for whatever reason).
Granted - nobody gets to lvl4. But lvl2 already gives 4 all around.

Just fly to the front and nothing will ever ambush you again. Thats just not good.
Maybe give Fighters 2 scouting moves? Or let ppl build Recon cars?

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