Questions about hoping to test stealth abilities of different platforms

[fatgreta1066]

Hi,

I tried this once before and stopped halfway through. I'm looking to set up a test scenario to see how hard / easy to detect different stealth aircraft in the DB are to identify and engage with modern radar / SAM systems, and how to try to defeat those systems. I don't really know much about what the current best radars and SAMs are, or how to deploy them in a way that is realistic. So I've got some questions.

What are the currently most advanced radars and SAMs for Russia, China and NATO?

What are each sides most effective EW / jammer aircraft?

Are there any scenarios you can think of that show some of these defenses arrayed as they would tend to be IRL? I'm thinking that I'll edit one of those scenarios and set up some different types of missions with different types of aircraft to get started.

There may be a lot that I'm not thinking of here, any other feedback will be appreciated as well.

Thanks,

Chris

[BDukes]

I keep a gameplay spreadsheet which I use to play and build stuff.

Screenshot 2022-03-28 093856.JPG (70.82 KiB) Viewed 976 times

Best Jammers is more about generational differences I think. You can see in most start at about the same range. The difficult part is figuring out where to put what you're trying to protect. Right now my take is very very close behind with advanced jammers vs. the best radars.

Trial in the editor is currently the best way and you definitely have to really really like this game to do it. Lot of work for a hobby

Best Radars.

Depends on the radar type. VHF is generally best although 2D, AESA/PESA etc have their own qualities. End of the day everybody usually bases these things in clusters to cover the spectrum. Go to Twitter and search Russian bases in Syria or Crimea. There is lot of OSINT pictures of various configurations. There are a few more radars and updates in the db pipeline so maybe more to add.

Best land based
Rezonans-N (this one may be a little too optimistic)
JY-27
JY-27A
Tall Racks (Nebo)
Protivnik
Cheese Board
Big Bird

[KungPao]

Best land based radar?
P-14 early warning radar in a SA-5(S-200) SAM Site. This thing can detect B-2 at 50nm away.

[BDukes]

Yes, see below.

Detections.JPG (225.04 KiB) Viewed 946 times

I'm not too critical about this because the real data is classified and in terms of modeling in this version of the game you're not looking at data, just outcomes (it is stealthier than many aircraft-bad for your hunt for perfect but good enough for the level of detail for simulating and decisions during gameplay).

Another bit to remember is that these old systems have been around forever because basic electronic physics and far easier to fix. Sometimes to repair it's just weld on a new arm and pop in a new board etc. that has been manufactured enough or is simple enough to do in a workshop. Many transmitters/receivers you see on newer systems actually are principally the same, it is the processing and communications gear behind it that makes it better. Most of that stuff CMO doesn't model. This is no criticism btw but probably the longest way ever of saying don't assume the old stuff is crap.

So looking what I've collected I've got this. My data points are high altitude 36000ft and second to lowest altitude 2000ft with a head-on flight path as that is where you generally can drop most pgms which is really the parameters I care about.

These are the broad assumptions I've developed for flight and strike planning against land targets. There are outliers but these things have reduced my shitty decisions significantly.

• Stealthy aircraft can generally go to high or low altitudes. In most cases, you actually want to choose the higher as it keeps up out of range of many air defenses and is falls in more loadout weapons altitude parameters.

• Stealthy internal loadouts are far more stealthy than those with external stores. Fact best to just treat external loadouts like any other aircraft as far as altitude and flight path choices. Watch for internal loadouts with external fuel tank stores.

• Standard aircraft should go high until around 215-200nm where they should revert to a low profile to avoid detection. this also brings you into more SAM and AAA envelopes so start thinking ranges at this point.

• This 200nm number is actually great as it's close to where jamming starts as well.

• Mainstay Shmel detections are the same regardless of altitude if the Mainstay is at a high altitude.

• Make sure you stay low during egress until out of that 200nm bubble. Humans learn the hardway. Patrol missions AI altitudes can be set but strike missions currently cannot which kinda hoses the AI. I'm working on some lua for that.

If anybody else knows some tips please do post. Getting older I've found it helps writing this stuff down

Mike

[TempestII]

For NATO, I just did a quick test with some radars.
For detecting VLO assets, the VHF JLENS picked up a FB-22 Strike Raptor at 76.9 nautical miles, no OECM at FL550. It also detected the RQ-180 at 36.3nm, similar FL (probably the most low observable aircraft in the game) and F-22A at 71nm. This beat the SPY 3 and 4 radars. The SPY 4 detected a B-2A at circa 32nm and F-22A at 52nm.

The NATO air defences engaged the FB-22 at about 40nm with RIM-174A ERAM SM-6 Duals. The same missile type engaged the RQ-180 at circa 25nm.

[KungPao]

Mike
Thanks for your insights. I hope the forum can provide a like or an upvote button.
Is it possible that you can share the spreadsheet with us?

[BDukes]

Sure. Attached. Its incompleteness is due to me having a wife and a life. One day I'll have most of what is needed.

Mike

[fatgreta1066]

Best land based
Rezonans-N (this one may be a little too optimistic)
JY-27
JY-27A
Tall Racks (Nebo)
Protivnik
Cheese Board
Big Bird

Thanks for this. Two questions. Is the Rezonans-N in the DB? When I look for that phrase nothing comes up. Second, what are some of the best land based US / Western Power radars?

Thanks,

Chris

[BDukes]

There are four for four different nations. I'm using db v493

Rez.JPG (128.61 KiB) Viewed 823 times

Don't have the data yet to know what the best US radars are in game but assuming AN/FPS-117s, RATs, Ground Masters. Will post an updated file at some point.

Mike

[fatgreta1066]

Best land based
Rezonans-N (this one may be a little too optimistic)

In my first test flight, this radar picked up the F-117, Su-57 and J-20 at just over 600nm, the F-35IIA & C at 530nm, the F-22 at 500nm, and the B-2 at 84nm. So I'm hoping (for our sake) that's optimistic? That was at 36000 feet. level flight over the ocean. Will continue testing. I haven't yet kept track of how soon they ID'd the craft, were able to engage, etc.

[thewood1]

The Rezonans-N radar is relatively new and only partially deployed. Its built specifically to detect "stealth" aircraft. Only three have been built and only two are fully operational, with two more on the way. Maybe the db is optimistic, but the radar is built for this specific task. The phased radars being built and developed are a threat to stealth aircraft and its why for most strikes, ECM aircraft will have to be part of the package. These 1:1 tests have some use to inform, but are somewhat limited because all of the battles they participate in require a team approach. On the defense, you have the search radar, the FC radar, ECM, various layers of SAMs, etc. On the attack for SEAD, you have long range strike, short range strike, ECM, AEW for coordination, ESM, etc. All of these components play a major role in a modern battle, as you probably know. The best example is the F-35. Its main feature is not stealth. Its the networking capability to "fuze" all of its team's information and feed back information on the battle space.

A slightly less capable version of the Rezonans-N has already been exported, but there is still debate how close the the domestic version it really is to it.

btw, its should be pointed out that the focus for development of the Rezonans-N was to overcome a couple VHF weaknesses: large footprint of the entire unit, lack of mobility, and inaccurate locationing. Basically, in a traditional VHF radar, you have to build a large permanent facility for it and it can typically only give general location. Then the contact has to be handed off to other radars to get a localization that can then be handed off to a FC radar. With the Rezonans-N phased radar and power signal analysis, VHF radars can provide real-time tracking that can be quickly handed to a SAM FC for execution. Rezonans-N's disadvantage is still its limited mobility. Better than older systems, but still takes hours to a day to move and set up.

[BDukes]

Best land based
Rezonans-N (this one may be a little too optimistic)

In my first test flight, this radar picked up the F-117, Su-57 and J-20 at just over 600nm, the F-35IIA & C at 530nm, the F-22 at 500nm, and the B-2 at 84nm. So I'm hoping (for our sake) that's optimistic? That was at 36000 feet. level flight over the ocean. Will continue testing. I haven't yet kept track of how soon they ID'd the craft, were able to engage, etc.

Yes I was being nice about it. Goal is to take it up in the DB github site and get it fixed. They've been a great help with a couple of things so far.

Mike

[BDukes]

The Rezonans-N radar is relatively new and only partially deployed. Its built specifically to detect "stealth" aircraft. Only three have been built and only two are fully operational, with two more on the way. Maybe the db is optimistic, but the radar is built for this specific task. The phased radars being built and developed are a threat to stealth aircraft and its why for most strikes, ECM aircraft will have to be part of the package. These 1:1 tests have some use to inform, but are somewhat limited because all of the battles they participate in require a team approach. On the defense, you have the search radar, the FC radar, ECM, various layers of SAMs, etc. On the attack for SEAD, you have long range strike, short range strike, ECM, AEW for coordination, ESM, etc. All of these components play a major role in a modern battle, as you probably know. The best example is the F-35. Its main feature is not stealth. Its the networking capability to "fuze" all of its team's information and feed back information on the battle space.

A slightly less capable version of the Rezonans-N has already been exported, but there is still debate how close the the domestic version it really is to it.

btw, its should be pointed out that the focus for development of the Rezonans-N was to overcome a couple VHF weaknesses: large footprint of the entire unit, lack of mobility, and inaccurate locationing. Basically, in a traditional VHF radar, you have to build a large permanent facility for it and it can typically only give general location. Then the contact has to be handed off to other radars to get a localization that can then be handed off to a FC radar. With the Rezonans-N phased radar and power signal analysis, VHF radars can provide real-time tracking that can be quickly handed to a SAM FC for execution. Rezonans-N's disadvantage is still its limited mobility. Better than older systems, but still takes hours to a day to move and set up.

Good lord.

This just needs to be tested and fixed. Not a big deal. The detection range is very optimistic and physics....

Mike