We pay in Blood - HLYA (G) vs Veterin (S)
Moderator: Joel Billings
- HardLuckYetAgain
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We pay in Blood - HLYA (G) vs Veterin (S)
I begin this AAR with the following quote by Otto Von Bismarck
"Anyone who ever has looked into the glazed eyes of a soldier dying on the battlefield will think hard before starting a War"
"Anyone who ever has looked into the glazed eyes of a soldier dying on the battlefield will think hard before starting a War"
German Turn 1 opening moves. The post that keeps on giving https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 1&t=390004
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Re: We pay in Blood - HLYA (G) vs Veterin (S)
Me as the commander of Axis Forces to the Soviet commander. I can only surmise the hate in those red eyes. But I have to do my duty as the Axis Commander. I am Sorry.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oHtLmjKRbE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oHtLmjKRbE
German Turn 1 opening moves. The post that keeps on giving https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 1&t=390004
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Re: We pay in Blood - HLYA (G) vs Veterin (S)
Ok, have a bit of time so lets start filling in some blank sheets of forum paper. Here are the rules for this match-up. Again, EVERYONE is able to read and comment in this AAR including Veterin(Vet). If I type or post a snap shot he can use then it is my own fault. Without further ado the house rules.
HOUSE RULES
* NO Motorization! (It is busted IMO and ruled out by my opponent too)
* NO Airborne drops (Does not make a difference to me since I plan on "owning" the skies into 44. Not to mention the Germans can use Para's too & I love using them. Yes, I have had two game to 44 and "know" what I am doing in the air)
* NO Naval invasion(s) (Again, does not matter to me but nice since I don't have to stick Rumanians all over the place Guarding coastline. Not to mention it helps speed up the game without me figuring out the defense and Naval interdiction)
* No SPAM GA small plane missions (I don't care if the Soviets use it but my opponent wanted it to be house ruled out. I know I can stop it. But for this game it is ruled out for both sides)
*NO Airfield bombing When your opponent can read the Air Execution on re-basing this breaks airfield bombing in my opinion. Veterin requested and I agreed with the addition of this house rule on 8/29/22. The exception is the 1st turn German air phase.
Game Settings
* Open TB for both side - Many have said that this is PRO German. I beg to differ. It is really PRO Soviet IMO. Not to mention this opens up for some pretty amazing games. Don't believe me try it. Or if you are traditional and historical then by all means play with closed TB's. I absolutely LOVE this feature put in by Gary & Joel. I LOVE you for this! Thank you!
* Bitter End Campaign - Another GREAT feature put in by Gary & Joel. I LOVE this game scenario instead of playing the sudden death game dictation of battle for the VP's at specific dates. This only leads to a quick defeat on the Germans or Win based on player skill. By choosing this scenario, "Bitter End", I choose the WAY I WANT to fight MY WAR instead of rushing towards some historical game rush to VP's to do what the Germans or Soviets did in real life. I WILL SET my own VP's as the Germans and the Soviets have to beat it. That is just the type of game I want! NOT mimic a set "artificial" pace in this game trying to mimic history. My history is my own not a remake of the real life German war machine.
A shout out to my opponent for picking up a game with me. I am not the best player in WITE2 but I will give Vet a challenge. If anyone has ever said I was an "expert" or hinted at that they are 100% wrong. I am always learning and doing new things. Sometimes it works, most times they don't. I am not scared to do things that others have not tried. Or do things that others have tried but in different ways. I "can't" claim not to have read the manual any longer either. I actually sat down and have now read about 60% of the manual. So I can no longer say, "If I read the manual it would make me a better player". So hopefully it has. If not, oh well. But yes, "Thank you" Vet for taking up the game and hope it is interesting for all to read and comment since I have asked Vet to bless the AAR with his counter analysis from the Soviet side of this game. I personally don't like doing that but I think for this game it will be beneficial for all to see. He did agree if he has time. Thank you up front for that Vet!
I will open this AAR with my Rovno Pocket for all to see in the South step by step for any that did not follow it real time on the Discord channel(with commentary real time on Discord) as I walked through the pocket making. Here goes
HOUSE RULES
* NO Motorization! (It is busted IMO and ruled out by my opponent too)
* NO Airborne drops (Does not make a difference to me since I plan on "owning" the skies into 44. Not to mention the Germans can use Para's too & I love using them. Yes, I have had two game to 44 and "know" what I am doing in the air)
* NO Naval invasion(s) (Again, does not matter to me but nice since I don't have to stick Rumanians all over the place Guarding coastline. Not to mention it helps speed up the game without me figuring out the defense and Naval interdiction)
* No SPAM GA small plane missions (I don't care if the Soviets use it but my opponent wanted it to be house ruled out. I know I can stop it. But for this game it is ruled out for both sides)
*NO Airfield bombing When your opponent can read the Air Execution on re-basing this breaks airfield bombing in my opinion. Veterin requested and I agreed with the addition of this house rule on 8/29/22. The exception is the 1st turn German air phase.
Game Settings
* Open TB for both side - Many have said that this is PRO German. I beg to differ. It is really PRO Soviet IMO. Not to mention this opens up for some pretty amazing games. Don't believe me try it. Or if you are traditional and historical then by all means play with closed TB's. I absolutely LOVE this feature put in by Gary & Joel. I LOVE you for this! Thank you!
* Bitter End Campaign - Another GREAT feature put in by Gary & Joel. I LOVE this game scenario instead of playing the sudden death game dictation of battle for the VP's at specific dates. This only leads to a quick defeat on the Germans or Win based on player skill. By choosing this scenario, "Bitter End", I choose the WAY I WANT to fight MY WAR instead of rushing towards some historical game rush to VP's to do what the Germans or Soviets did in real life. I WILL SET my own VP's as the Germans and the Soviets have to beat it. That is just the type of game I want! NOT mimic a set "artificial" pace in this game trying to mimic history. My history is my own not a remake of the real life German war machine.
A shout out to my opponent for picking up a game with me. I am not the best player in WITE2 but I will give Vet a challenge. If anyone has ever said I was an "expert" or hinted at that they are 100% wrong. I am always learning and doing new things. Sometimes it works, most times they don't. I am not scared to do things that others have not tried. Or do things that others have tried but in different ways. I "can't" claim not to have read the manual any longer either. I actually sat down and have now read about 60% of the manual. So I can no longer say, "If I read the manual it would make me a better player". So hopefully it has. If not, oh well. But yes, "Thank you" Vet for taking up the game and hope it is interesting for all to read and comment since I have asked Vet to bless the AAR with his counter analysis from the Soviet side of this game. I personally don't like doing that but I think for this game it will be beneficial for all to see. He did agree if he has time. Thank you up front for that Vet!
I will open this AAR with my Rovno Pocket for all to see in the South step by step for any that did not follow it real time on the Discord channel(with commentary real time on Discord) as I walked through the pocket making. Here goes
Last edited by HardLuckYetAgain on Mon Aug 29, 2022 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
German Turn 1 opening moves. The post that keeps on giving https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 1&t=390004
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Re: We pay in Blood - HLYA (G) vs Veterin (S)
I do believe @beethoven he was hoping for a challenging opening in the south in our game here https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 2&t=385955 I decided "not" to do a Rovno or a Rovno & Rumanian rush to the border in that game. I have my reasons for that game and will be explained why I did not when some more turns elapse in that match up here https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 2&t=386348 BUT, for this game I am going to do one or both the Rovno and Rumanian border rush. So this is my setup map on my decision to either "just" do the Rovno pocket or do both the Rovno pocket and rush to the Rumanian border. I thought this over overnight before continuing the process of the turn. Here is what I have and any player should be able to mimic these moves pretty easily. If not just post here or PM me and I will explain or look in my Discord commentary for more step by steps.
You can see I have routed almost all units into a nice pocket circled in black. Please excuse my "crayon" markup but I have little time to make this a professional look like so many others. But this is the setup before my decision to do one or the other or both of the pockets in the south.
You can see I have routed almost all units into a nice pocket circled in black. Please excuse my "crayon" markup but I have little time to make this a professional look like so many others. But this is the setup before my decision to do one or the other or both of the pockets in the south.
Last edited by HardLuckYetAgain on Sun Aug 28, 2022 5:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
German Turn 1 opening moves. The post that keeps on giving https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 1&t=390004
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Re: We pay in Blood - HLYA (G) vs Veterin (S)
After over night thinking on it I will ONLY do the Rovno pocket.
Ok, here is a quick drawn up Operational Intent on my part. RP is the route point where I want all units to route too. Why? Because of the city and major rail to it. I want to encase all of these units into a pocket instead of direct attack this game. I want their trucks! I tested this out last week and seems to work but again we have RNG on Soviet units that could be hurtful. I also circled the HQ in the back and I am pretty sure that has a good Soviet Armor leader in it. I would like to get a leader kill on that HQ but if not oh well. I am happy Matrix finally lowered the kill rate on displaced HQ's. I was a HUGE advocate for that in many of my old AAR's to be lowered and through my shortness in BETA time. But would be nice long term for the Light side, Right side THE Germans. Finally once that is done I close off the large pocket and make two pockets just in case Vet get the chance to open the pocket up. I hope to alleviate counterattack opportunities.
Ok, here is a quick drawn up Operational Intent on my part. RP is the route point where I want all units to route too. Why? Because of the city and major rail to it. I want to encase all of these units into a pocket instead of direct attack this game. I want their trucks! I tested this out last week and seems to work but again we have RNG on Soviet units that could be hurtful. I also circled the HQ in the back and I am pretty sure that has a good Soviet Armor leader in it. I would like to get a leader kill on that HQ but if not oh well. I am happy Matrix finally lowered the kill rate on displaced HQ's. I was a HUGE advocate for that in many of my old AAR's to be lowered and through my shortness in BETA time. But would be nice long term for the Light side, Right side THE Germans. Finally once that is done I close off the large pocket and make two pockets just in case Vet get the chance to open the pocket up. I hope to alleviate counterattack opportunities.
Last edited by HardLuckYetAgain on Sun Aug 28, 2022 2:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
German Turn 1 opening moves. The post that keeps on giving https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 1&t=390004
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Re: We pay in Blood - HLYA (G) vs Veterin (S)
Now lets get down to Fire and Maneuver and let the Pied Piper start playing his tune! The GERMAN way to do things.
Last edited by HardLuckYetAgain on Sun Aug 28, 2022 2:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
German Turn 1 opening moves. The post that keeps on giving https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 1&t=390004
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Re: We pay in Blood - HLYA (G) vs Veterin (S)
I am finding my first tank unit to move
But before that I want to point out this routed unit I circled(forgot to circle it in the picture but you can tell by the arrows directions). That routed unit will go one of two places. I have a 50/50 chance of it routing to the pocket #2 or to #1. Lets see where it goes, either to #1 or #2. I have chosen 13th PZ to lead the charge. Lets see what happens to the route.
But before that I want to point out this routed unit I circled(forgot to circle it in the picture but you can tell by the arrows directions). That routed unit will go one of two places. I have a 50/50 chance of it routing to the pocket #2 or to #1. Lets see where it goes, either to #1 or #2. I have chosen 13th PZ to lead the charge. Lets see what happens to the route.
Last edited by HardLuckYetAgain on Sun Aug 28, 2022 2:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
German Turn 1 opening moves. The post that keeps on giving https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 1&t=390004
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Re: We pay in Blood - HLYA (G) vs Veterin (S)
Just to be clear, both places are fine for me either way.
It went into the pocket I want to form!!!!!!!
Anyone know why the unit did this? I know why and explained it on the discord channel but will explain here for many to see. The Germans need to be cognitive of this to up their game since the Germans need every bit of edge they can get to make things like this happen
I also see other players using some of my techniques I have been talking about in discord too in their games as Germans. That is good and what it is about, helping others understand this WUNDERBAR game. Still needs some TLC but that will come in time from the DEVs listening to those that love this game.
It went into the pocket I want to form!!!!!!!
Anyone know why the unit did this? I know why and explained it on the discord channel but will explain here for many to see. The Germans need to be cognitive of this to up their game since the Germans need every bit of edge they can get to make things like this happen

Last edited by HardLuckYetAgain on Sun Aug 28, 2022 5:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
German Turn 1 opening moves. The post that keeps on giving https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 1&t=390004
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Re: We pay in Blood - HLYA (G) vs Veterin (S)
I bring up a regiment of 3/25 to get rid of some strong points to make way to the NE for my boys. Note the HQ, I always make sure at each battle my HQ's are within range. If you don't it could be the difference between a hold result and a retreat/rout result. Having said that there are times I leave HQ's out of range to lower my combat potential just to complicate matters, LOL. I do have that in this run through too by the way.
Should be easy kills, nothing to see here
Should be easy kills, nothing to see here
German Turn 1 opening moves. The post that keeps on giving https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 1&t=390004
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Re: We pay in Blood - HLYA (G) vs Veterin (S)
The dirty work is done and now will move 3/25 to the east of the HQ and inf division under the HQ. This will dictate a retreat/route to the RP when I attack with 13 PZ to the forming pocket, I hope. Actually I know it will because of Rovno pull. The Pied Piper plays and the routed unit will dance to the music 

German Turn 1 opening moves. The post that keeps on giving https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 1&t=390004
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Re: We pay in Blood - HLYA (G) vs Veterin (S)
13th PZ will do the honors, no GS since I really don't want this to rout out of the forming pocket. The unit should retreat to the north or NW or rout to Rovno if not hit to hard. Hitting it hard, i.e., with GS will rout it to the East
. I don't want that, so GS is off.

German Turn 1 opening moves. The post that keeps on giving https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 1&t=390004
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Re: We pay in Blood - HLYA (G) vs Veterin (S)
Realize I have not done any of the northern pincer moves yet. I want nothing to interfere with the pull of retreats or routs to Rovno area. Northern pincer will come soon enough. All about song and dance, fire and maneuver!
I scroll out almost all the way to see retreats right before I attack. The Inf went NW as shown in the picture, but I lost track of the HQ with my old eyes. The Pied Piper plays and the Soviet Div dances to the song, nice!
I scroll out almost all the way to see retreats right before I attack. The Inf went NW as shown in the picture, but I lost track of the HQ with my old eyes. The Pied Piper plays and the Soviet Div dances to the song, nice!
German Turn 1 opening moves. The post that keeps on giving https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 1&t=390004
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Re: We pay in Blood - HLYA (G) vs Veterin (S)
So far everything is falling into place
Time for the Pied Piper to again play and I bring up 2/25 to dictate retreat hopes for the Soviet Rifle division as indicated. It should go to the pull rout point of Rovno area and the "RAILHEAD" city Rovno
Lets see if the Pied Piper is earning his pay.
Time for the Pied Piper to again play and I bring up 2/25 to dictate retreat hopes for the Soviet Rifle division as indicated. It should go to the pull rout point of Rovno area and the "RAILHEAD" city Rovno

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Re: We pay in Blood - HLYA (G) vs Veterin (S)
13 PZ again will do the honors of attacking. Again no GS since I don't want this to rout out of pocket or blow up
Realize I also make sure I have my HQ's within range for this attack, all of the HQ's
The Soviets listen to the Pied Piper and retreats to the rough terrain as predicted. The pull of the Rovno railhead rout point is STRONG and the song is GOOD!
Realize I also make sure I have my HQ's within range for this attack, all of the HQ's
The Soviets listen to the Pied Piper and retreats to the rough terrain as predicted. The pull of the Rovno railhead rout point is STRONG and the song is GOOD!
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Re: We pay in Blood - HLYA (G) vs Veterin (S)
I am losing more tanks than I want to but in the end it is all about the trucks captured for me.
Ok, I stop the southern pincer because I don't want any combat around the rail lines circled and numbered #1. If I did the rout point of Rovno would be gone. You HAVE to pay attention to things like this playing Germany and surrounding units. So I begin the Northern pincer and bring up sister PZ number 14 to start the dirty work on the north pincer to encase Rovno.
It is ALL song and dance, fire and maneuver and of course the Pied Piper!
Also curious where this unit is going to displace to since I am pretty sure it is a HQ that is NW of the Mech unit and 2 hexes NE of 14 PZ. Think I found the HQ I lost earlier.
Ok, I stop the southern pincer because I don't want any combat around the rail lines circled and numbered #1. If I did the rout point of Rovno would be gone. You HAVE to pay attention to things like this playing Germany and surrounding units. So I begin the Northern pincer and bring up sister PZ number 14 to start the dirty work on the north pincer to encase Rovno.
It is ALL song and dance, fire and maneuver and of course the Pied Piper!
Also curious where this unit is going to displace to since I am pretty sure it is a HQ that is NW of the Mech unit and 2 hexes NE of 14 PZ. Think I found the HQ I lost earlier.
German Turn 1 opening moves. The post that keeps on giving https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 1&t=390004
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Re: We pay in Blood - HLYA (G) vs Veterin (S)
LOL, it displaced to Kostopol. Now where will it displace this time? The pull of Rovno is strong but is it strong enough to pull south or will it go North? Let's find out.
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Re: We pay in Blood - HLYA (G) vs Veterin (S)
It went north. Made me a sad panda . The pull of Rovno was not strong with that HQ.
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Re: We pay in Blood - HLYA (G) vs Veterin (S)
Ok, here is where experience kicks in. Normally these tank divisions are not strong. In all my openings these units love to ROUT far from full PZ division attacks. So I break down into regiments for this attack. I pick 1st regiment at the bottom since that unit always has the most combat elements after a split and 2nd regiment to attack. I am ALSO staying outside of HQ range ON PURPOSE,(I could have brought up another HQ and assigned them to that HQ if I wanted to, but I dont for reasons just given) again lowering my combat potential. I don't want this to rout only to retreat. I also DO NOT turn on GS. It is all guesses and hunches but I have a ton of experience on it. So I go with my experience.
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Re: We pay in Blood - HLYA (G) vs Veterin (S)
This attack is chancy if the Armor division has good RNG.
If the attack fails I may not be able to close the pocket the way I practiced
Plus this unit is under Rokossvky I believe too, further complicating this. At least I am pretty sure he is.
(I mulled this over in my head for awhile while people on the Discord channel waited)
Screw it, I'm pushing the button for the attack
If the attack fails I may not be able to close the pocket the way I practiced
Plus this unit is under Rokossvky I believe too, further complicating this. At least I am pretty sure he is.
(I mulled this over in my head for awhile while people on the Discord channel waited)
Screw it, I'm pushing the button for the attack
Last edited by HardLuckYetAgain on Sun Aug 28, 2022 3:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
German Turn 1 opening moves. The post that keeps on giving https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 1&t=390004
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Re: We pay in Blood - HLYA (G) vs Veterin (S)
Not pretty but it worked. Rokossovky is in charge of the unit. I lose more tanks than I want but now only two fort zones and a sec rgmt stand in the way of closure. As you can see the pull of the Rovno railhead is strong and the unit retreated to it.
German Turn 1 opening moves. The post that keeps on giving https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 1&t=390004