Dual-use radars are too capable

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LetMePickThat
Posts: 51
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:59 pm

Dual-use radars are too capable

Post by LetMePickThat »

Hi all,

In CMO, some dual-use radars are too capable against very high altitude, high speed and low RCS targets without remote cueing. For instance, the AN/MPQ-65 is capable of detecting a Scud B at more than 95km of altitude and 175 km away.

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Such range and altitude figures are within the capabilities of the -65 only in cued mode, when another radar is used for early warning and initial target data sharing. This is not an issue with DB values for specific radars, but rather with CMO not handling remote cueing and/or mode limitations for dual-use radars.

Some of these radars can scan at the edge of space without resorting to external help, but this comes at the cost of giving up low and medium altitude scan zones. Similarly, operating in counter-ABT modes makes BMD a secondary preocupation. There is some overlap, and some BMD can be done in ABT modes, but with severe altitude and range limitations. At the moment, CMO models those dual-use radars as operating in all modes simultaneously: they can track and engage almost at the same time relatively low flying fighters and launch vehicles crossing the Kaman line.

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In real life, a Scud flying at 95km of altitude 175km downrange would not be picked up by a Patriot battery set up for counter-ABT ops (unless the ballistic threat comes from a sector that was specifically designated for BM search at the cost of ABT search), and remote cueing would be necessary.

The lack of remote cueing and/or operating mode limitations make dual-use SAM systems more dangerous and capable in CMO than they are in real-life when facing combined BM/AB attacks.

Thoughts ?
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SeaQueen
Posts: 1436
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Location: Washington D.C.

Re: Dual-use radars are too capable

Post by SeaQueen »

CMO does not generally take into account multiple modes. It's unclear where they would find the data to support it, even if the software had it. Most radars have at most two modes, a search mode and a target illumination mode which is basically equivalent to STT mode on a real radar.

The other problem might be that the RCS values aren't what you expect them to be. The frequency bands are also binned quite coarsely.

If you have specific, unclassified, opened source data and suggestions on how to improve the model, I'm sure people would enjoy your input to a database change request.
LetMePickThat
Posts: 51
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:59 pm

Re: Dual-use radars are too capable

Post by LetMePickThat »

SeaQueen wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 2:57 pm CMO does not generally take into account multiple modes. It's unclear where they would find the data to support it, even if the software had it. Most radars have at most two modes, a search mode and a target illumination mode which is basically equivalent to STT mode on a real radar.
This is a different issue though.
TWS and scanning modes are pretty transparent for the player, as there is no functional difference (at CMO's level anyway) between a radar tracking xtargets and a radar guiding AAMs toward these targets. STT is a different beast, because it prevents the launcher from searching at the same time, but this can be adressed pretty well by having a simple logic forcing a unit guiding a Fox 1 missile to drop all other targets it might see.

The other problem might be that the RCS values aren't what you expect them to be. The frequency bands are also binned quite coarsely.
It's not an RCS or frequency bands problem. It's just an issue where search volumes are defined according to the max range, altitude and angles, whereas specific BMD modes operate with much shorter practical ranges, smaller volumes and, most importantly, very restricted elevation limitations. Again, a dual-mode radar should not be able to *simultaneously* track an airbreathing target flying FL200-300 and an incoming ballistic RV flying at 95km:
  • either the radar was set up for BMD exclusively, in which case it could detect the RV if it happens to fly in the narrow BMD search volume but would miss the ABT,
  • or it was set up for counter-ABT (thus with search volumes and angles close to the maximum advertised), but would then be unable to track the RV (unless cued, at which point it would have to drop the ABT to focus more power in the direction of the RV to build a firing solution.
If you have specific, unclassified, opened source data and suggestions on how to improve the model, I'm sure people would enjoy your input to a database change request.
I'll submit documentation, but this IMHO will not require a database change; it's not a database issue.
ExNusquam
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Location: Washington, D.C.

Re: Dual-use radars are too capable

Post by ExNusquam »

Unless C:MO added different search modes configuration/prioritization, I think the current balance is probably fine. The radar has better multi-mode capabilities, but it's also detecting ballistic threats at sharply reduced ranges. Modern ESA's running BMD detection fences for high-doppler targets can get detections well beyond the current database ranges.

Changing that adds an additional wrinkle of complexity that's starting to dive into very specific button-ology.
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