History GROGs: Usage of the 88?

[MarkShot]

When I was with Panther Games, we often had 88s in the OOB in an artillery role. I asked if I could set them up as a standoff tank weapon, and was told "no". NOTE: We had one British gunner on the team and one Australian (I was the systems guy), and they said direct fire and indirect fire are entirely different skill sets.

But watching WII history on YouTube, it seem LW FLAK 88's were often pressed into the anti-tank role by Wehrmacht commanders?

So, what is the story with the 88?

Thanks.

[Jango32]

The principal reason for the 88’s success was that the Germans (and to a lesser extent the Soviets) had identified AA weapons as potentially lethal weapons for ground combat. In WW2, only the German Army and Luftwaffe flak troops developed the use of AA weapons against ground targets to the point where it was the tactical norm.

The Germans became aware early on that the nature of AA weapons, and the type of crews needed to man them, made them very suited to anti-tank work. AA guns were high muzzle velocity, high rate of fire weapons which need better than average optical gun sights. They had to be mobile to keep up with and protect other arms. They needed to track a target very rapidly, establish its range rapidly and shoot it down rapidly. To fulfill these functions, AA gun crews needed to be trained better than most and be able to respond rapidly to changing tactical situations. It turns out these are also all ideal attributes for destroying tanks and other vehicles. It therefore made perfect sense to make sure flak guns had optical sites for ground as well as air combat, could depress and traverse the gun onto ground targets, and had ammunition specifically designed for ground targets; especially tanks.

Perhaps most important was to train AA personnel to simultaneously think and operate in an anti-air, anti-tank and anti-personnel way. This meant they were not just responsible for air defense but had to integrate with other arms for all round defense and attack. These are all factors that enhance overall combat proficiency.

[malyhin1517]

In 1941, the 88 mm anti-aircraft gun was the only way to deal with the Soviet KV-1 heavy tanks. Moreover, as a result, German heavy tanks were armed with an 88 mm gun based on an anti-aircraft gun.

[Jango32]

In 1941, the 88 mm anti-aircraft gun was the only way to deal with the Soviet KV-1 heavy tanks. Moreover, as a result, German heavy tanks were armed with an 88 mm gun based on an anti-aircraft gun.

Pioneers, medium and heavy artillery were also used.

[malyhin1517]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Raseiniai

The lone Soviet tank

An abandoned Soviet KV-2 tank left by the roadside inspected by curious German soldiers. One KV-2, in some accounts, held up the entire 6th Panzer Division for a single day before being finally overwhelmed.[15].
A single KV-1 or KV-2 tank (accounts vary) advanced far behind the German lines after attacking a column of German supply trucks. The tank stopped on a road across soft ground and was engaged by four 50 mm anti-tank guns of the 6th Panzer Division's anti-tank battalion. The tank was hit several times but fired back and destroyed all four enemy AT guns. An 8.8cm FlaK of the divisional anti-aircraft battalion was moved about 730 m (800 yd) behind the lone Soviet tank but was knocked out by the tank before it could manage to score a hit. During the night, German combat engineers tried to destroy the tank with satchel charges but failed despite possibly damaging the vehicle's tracks. Early on the morning of June 25, German tanks fired on the KV from the nearby woodland while another 8.8cm FlaK fired at the tank from its rear. Of several shots fired, only two managed to penetrate the tank. German infantry then advanced towards the KV tank and it responded with machine-gun fire against them. Eventually, the tank was knocked out by grenades thrown into the hatches. According to some accounts, the dead crew was recovered and buried by the approaching German soldiers with full military honors, while in other accounts, the crew escaped from their crippled tank during the night.[16]

The 6th Panzer Division Kampfgruppe Erhard Raus, described it as a KV-1, which was damaged by several shots from an 8.8cm FlaK being used in an anti-tank role fired from behind the vehicle, while it was distracted by light Panzer 35(t) tanks from Panzer Battalion 65.[h] The KV-1 crew were killed by a pioneer engineer unit who pushed grenades through two holes made by the AT gun while the turret began moving again, with the other five or six shots having not fully penetrated. Apparently, the KV-1 crew had only been stunned by the shots which had entered the turret and were buried nearby with military honors by the German unit.[17]

In 1965, the remains of the crew were exhumed and reburied at the Soviet military cemetery in Raseiniai. According to research by Russian military historian Maksim Kolomiets, the tank may have been from the 3rd Company of the 1st Battalion of the 4th Tank Regiment, itself a part of the 2nd Tank Division. It is impossible to identify the crew because their personal documents were lost after being buried in the woods north of Raseiniai during the retreat, possibly by German troops.[18]

[Wiedrock]

The principal reason for the 88’s success was that the Germans (and to a lesser extent the Soviets) had identified AA weapons as potentially lethal weapons for ground combat. In WW2, only the German Army and Luftwaffe flak troops developed the use of AA weapons against ground targets to the point where it was the tactical norm.

The Germans became aware early on that the nature of AA weapons, and the type of crews needed to man them, made them very suited to anti-tank work. AA guns were high muzzle velocity, high rate of fire weapons which need better than average optical gun sights. They had to be mobile to keep up with and protect other arms. They needed to track a target very rapidly, establish its range rapidly and shoot it down rapidly. To fulfill these functions, AA gun crews needed to be trained better than most and be able to respond rapidly to changing tactical situations. It turns out these are also all ideal attributes for destroying tanks and other vehicles. It therefore made perfect sense to make sure flak guns had optical sites for ground as well as air combat, could depress and traverse the gun onto ground targets, and had ammunition specifically designed for ground targets; especially tanks.

Perhaps most important was to train AA personnel to simultaneously think and operate in an anti-air, anti-tank and anti-personnel way. This meant they were not just responsible for air defense but had to integrate with other arms for all round defense and attack. These are all factors that enhance overall combat proficiency.

+1 good short summarized

I am not sure about the actual use/doctrine/manuals of 88's at non motorized ground targets but I doubt the usage in an "indirect fire" role (though I'd like to learn more on that if that seriously happened regularly)... well ofc. one has to define which degree is supposed to be called indirect fire in the first place .
From battle reports I know the 88's were mostly used defensively and there they were hidden behind buildings/stuff to protect against enemy tanks comming from the flanks or advancing into their field of view and I doubt a company would have revealed their important anti tank assets just to shoot some infantry approaching which can be dealt with in different manners.

[Joch1955]

The 88mm gun was originally designed for a AA role and was usually used by Luftwaffe units, even in an AT role.

The reason the Germans used it in an AT role was the fact that until mid/late 42, German AFVs/AT guns used by the Army were not powerful enough to deal with many Russian or British tanks, while the 88mm gun could knock them out at long range.

It was also a good fit for how the Germans usually fought during the Blitzkrieg period, since they would usually be on the offence operationally, but on defense at a tactical level. German Panzer units would penetrate deep behind enemy lines and would occupy strategically important terrain/choke points which the enemy felt obliged to recapture. The 88mm guns would be deployed to inflict maximum damage on counterattacking forces.

[Great_Ajax]

A lot of assumptions on my part on what is to follow. Anti-air, anti-tank and artillery are all very specific skill sets that I highly doubt were standard training for the 88 crews. However, I expect that some of the mobile FLak units supporting the army in ground operations, were more likely to have developed these skill sets in the field due to necessity. I expect that static and partially mobile flak units that were generally immobile did not have these skill sets. So. Im summary, these skills were situational and not the standard.

[Denniss]

I agree with this assumtion. The motorized Flak units closely cooperated with army units and their 88s were often used as fire brigades to kill something with direct fire. May it be a heavy tank or a nasty fortification they could not get otherwise.
The static flak units probably had just basic or theoretical training in direct fire, I believe they did not even posess optics for direct fire except some iron sights.

[Wiedrock]

"German Flak 88 (US-Army Manual)"
It can be found online. For those further interested

88mm_US_manual.JPG (49.19 KiB) Viewed 594 times

[Light4bettor]

When I was with Panther Games, we often had 88s in the OOB in an artillery role

Outside of their utility in the Anti-armor role, I have seen anecdotal accounts of groups of 88 Flaks being used in the sustained indirect (albeit less effective than regular) artillery role (implied against soft-non armored targets). I dunno the specifics - but it seemed to be related to situations where there was a lack (or in conjunction with) of regular artillery (and/or supplies of regular artillery ammo). I guess that in certain situations the disruption/harassment caused on the Soviets justified their employment in this manner. I don't think the 88s had high explosive rounds -- I guess the flak air-burst rounds could be effective against soft ground targets- even if fired with a shallow indirect trajectory (even direct fire weapons - like heavy machine guns- are capable of plunging fire- which is indirect).

I guess it speaks to a general lack/want of firepower for the Germans (as the war progressed generally speaking) so its ad hoc use was warranted.

Just to be clear, I'm NOT commenting on a specific situation-like a massed Soviet infantry assault (which some people on this forum have said that 88s with their flak rounds could cause much damage to-at least in the game- I don't know if this was true in reality- where I imagine the 20mm rapid fire flack-with its optics and fast tracking/quickly reloaded- might be more devastating to massed human bodies), but rather situations that are more akin to like positional or semi-positional warfare (e.g., harassing a Soviet recon in force, or areas where newly arrived soviets are concentrating forces for a pending attack).

There is also some amount of war footage of the 88 Flak (and even some of the late specialized 88 Pak) being fired in what seems to be (at least to me) an artillery role rather than pin point direct anti-tank role.