This game have too many bugs!

[TomDrake]

I don`t want to sound like the baby, but I will.
I paid a hard price for your game, as I bought it with the hard rulebook copy. But after many scenarios, I decided to uninstall and go back to the old Flashpoint campaign. The last scenario "Steel rain" was just too much. The game is broken in many places.

How on earth do the Russians move so fast with orders dealy 51 min vs mine 32? Do they set a path from move number 1 to the end of the whole scenario??? Why do my units move one hex only after 50 min pass since the order??? They have not been in the fight, they moving far away from an enemy, not under fire, and HQ status is ok.

Why my M113 ATGM is not moving for over 40 minutes after receiving an order on the road, but after Russian tanks are 3 hexes from them, shoot at my M113, kill it 4 units out of 5...and M113 immediately move away? So they can`t move for over 40 min on the road, but sure they can run really fast!
I was using Cobras many times and they have been usually working ok. In this scenario, they have in their sites the whole road full of enemy Tanks and BMPs, but they did not shoot a single time in the whole scenario. BMPs shoot down 1 of the Cobras, and they just run away, crying to HQ. And I tried again and again with 100% ammo and NOTHING.
I did not order an air strike when Tornados reinforcements arrived, but somehow One happened immediately, a stupid one in the middle of an enemy (lost 1 Tornado), and after some time, when I wanted one and ordered Airstrike, all have been canceled and never happened.

Fix pathfinding by units because atm it is broken. Just one example here: How AI thinks it`s a faster route??? Uphill, downhill through the forest not on the road...


And the last one. In one scenario after the enemy lost 70% of his forces, I received a victory, 6 out of 7 stars. The enemy has been beaten. So I was like "Sure, let's finish them off, as my 3 Units of Leopards 2s x3 have been closing on an enemy". At this point AI should be holding their positions, trying to hold what they conquer, they should have problems with communication or supplies...And guess what? They move faster than me, with no problems and I almost lost a scenario! 3 stars out of 7 after times run out! So what about this?

My main problem with the game at this point is: the AI just switches orders on the move, to move here or there without ANY DELAY. AI is not waiting in one hex for 40-50 minutes before the next move, as in your first game. So, do AI is planning 20 waypoints at the beginning of the scenario, or simply is just cheating?
I don`t have any data, so only my words.
Please, fix your game, because now it`s just a waste of time. And frustration...
Anyway, I just have to cry somewhere.
Take care guys. I will try this game again after a 1 year or something. Good luck with fixing bugs.

[CapnDarwin]

Tom,

I hate to say this, but most of what you call bugs is misunderstanding the game and its mechanics. The AI in most battles follows a battle plan that gets them in reach of the objective areas for the scenario. So yes, they have some initially long orders pathing and, in most of those cases, are using assault orders near the object to keep them on task if under fire.

There is one known bug with the release. That allows reinforcements to start moving to their objectives while not on the map. It was found after we shipped out the steam release, unfortunately. It was an unexpected result of fixing an issue elsewhere. That can cause units "to pop up near or behind units out of the blue. That may be part of the "speed" issue you see.

The other "issues" are related to not using or understanding the impact of SOP (Stand Operating Procedures) on your units. These can impact the range of engagement, how fast or slow units respond to orders and enemy presence. The game has no "cheat" mechanics. The same rules for orders, spotting, and combat apply to both sides. As does SOP settings and orders issued by the AI. Let's review some of the details (we like to see screenshots and game saves to determine if there is a bug or player-related issue, but in this case, I'll guess based on your description).

Cobra - Best guess is not seeing the target. Just because a unit appears on the map does not mean all units can shoot at it. Next are ammo, range, and target type. What was the loadout on the Cobra? Did it have any ammo left of the correct type to engage the target? Was the SOP set to a reduced engagement range? Many reasons a unit may not shoot at what appears to be an open target.

Tornado - Best guess here is it was set on FSCC control (Hit the FS tab and look at all of the Support units. You can turn FSCC off and leave things 100% in your control) and was given a time and target-sensitive mission.

Path Finding - While it will never be 100% perfect, the game does a very good job most of the time plotting movement for units and groups of units. Again, the guess here is the SOP was set to Covered Movement and not Use Roads (speed over cover). The plot looks like a very good job of using a covered approach for those waypoints.

Pushing past the Sudden Death point - Just because the scenario has reached that tipping point, does not mean the enemy is incapable of inflicting score-changing losses. No idea of your force percentage, but if the enemy knocked out some tanks (high VP and combat power units) once the game finally ended, you may have lost both VPs and VP locations with the lost strength. The vast majority of the time, pressing on from a win will cost you points.

Hopefully, you can take some time with the game with the next update that fixes the reinforcement bug and review the docs and forums for SOP help (we are working on making that part a bit more user-friendly), and you can enjoy the game more.

[cbelva]

One thing that that I did not like in Red Storm was the way the AI for the opposing force would replan and replot in almost every one of its orders cycles. This would cause the AI forces to stop, replot their routes, and sit there while the delay factor was met for a new order. They would do this in the middle of a battle, and you could sit back and hammer the AI forces just sitting around waiting to move. This might have been my bigger gripe regarding Red Storm.

With Battle Planner in Southern Storm, you don’t have that problem. The Battle Planner will keep the AI forces on task even during an orders cycle. And so, yes, the AI forces move quicker and faster than they did in Red Storm. The AI actions in Southern Storm seem more realistic to me than in Red Storm.

I have not seen the behavior of units not responding. I would need to see an example from a saved game to tell what is going on. Movement delays are nowhere near as severe as they are in Red Storm. Tom, if have a saved game of the excess movement delays, send it to us and we will take a look at it.

The Cobra problem sounds like a problem with the settings within the SOP.

The Air strike can be controlled by removing it from the FSCC prior to its arrival if the player does not want the AI to order his air strikes. Red Storm did this and the player had no way to remove this control. I don’t know how many A/C I had shot down in Red Storm on airstrikes I didn’t order nor wanted.

The pathfinding issue appears to be due to SOP settings. This is an issue with pathfinding that the developers are aware of and are working on, but I don’t’ think this is the case here. Adjusting the SOP settings for the movement order many times will fix a routing issue.

The AI is not cheating. It is following its battle plan. There are some delays built in when the formation changes orders within its Battle Plan. Just as you would see in real life. An example would be if the formation changes from a Hasty move to a Deliberate or Assault move. There would be a delay as it reorganizes itself.

I’m not a programmer (I don’t have the slightest idea how to code), just a game player. I do know that Southern Storm is more than an enhanced Red Storm. Much of the code has been rewritten from the ground up. And it has improved the game immensely. In fact, I have a hard time going back and playing Red Storm. Even tho it may look like the same game, it is much more. Many hours of research have gone into unit behavior. It is not perfect, but I believe it is on the right track. There have been several professional military personnel who have helped with this.

Many of the complaints which we have received have been from players either not understanding, having wrong expectations, or comparing us to other type games. Red Storm had growing pains in the beginning, and so will Southern Storms. I don’t believe that Southern Storm is a buggy program, however, it will need adjustments as it grows and develops (like must programs). Red Strom in the beginning ran into the same problems. Also, players need to give themselves time to adjust to the differences. If you think you have a bug, send us a saved game so we can test it.

[TomDrake]

Thank you for your answers. Yea...first complaining then reading the rules
Yea, I guess I was angry. Sorry.

I checked Cobras LOS when I was playing, and targets have been seen on level 86%. SOP was set in the medium range with 2/3 Max Range -LUA-61. And Cobras were sometimes 3-5 hexes away, sometimes 1 hex away only (usually this was a moment when they get hit and run away back to HQ). A few games ago Cobras with Tow-2, rockets, and guns were harassing an enemy like crazy. Today...nothing.

So here is a question... I know enemy EW is usually HIGH. And some communication problems. I always play at random AI plans. How I can defend my position if my units in screen position, the second line of defense, wait over after receiving an order for 40 min to even move? Readiness at 90%. How I can keep my units doing stuff faster? I played later the Red Storm, and from the Hold position on the front line, the Unit start to move after like 30 minutes max. What am I doing wrong? Because I have a strange feeling, that after I set up my units and after the first orders in the first order cycle, I just watch this game, I don`t play because nothing is happening (mean my orders) after 40-50 min of in-game time.
It's not a very big scenario, so what is gonna happen when I start playing big ones?

Thank you.

[cbelva]

I'm been playing with Southern Storm for around three years and I forget how it threw me when I first played it. For Red Storm players, it will take some getting use to. I felt that there were several things broken when I first played it. I complained about them until I realized that they weren't and that the program handled things in a more realistic way. I had to remember that this was not Red Storm. As I got used to the new features within Southern Storm I couldn't go back to Red Storm. It seemed very archaic. The combat model is more realistic in Southern Storm and it was built so that we can expand it over time.

We don't claim that it is bug free and we appreciate help in identifying bugs so that we can take care of them. Please feel free to ask questions on things you don't understand.

[Tcao]

Regarding the pathfinding issue: I would guess the default option is "concealment". A change to "road" has been made but for some reason, you didn't hit "Apply to This and Later Units Orders". This is a very common mistake people have made.

[CapnDarwin]

We are working on a SOP UI overhaul to make SOP setting somewhat easier and more straightforward.

[TomDrake]

Thank you all, for the answers and tips.
Although I still don't understand why highly trained US M1 Tanks on the road need 70 min (yes) to move after receiving an Assault order. Completely fresh, not attacked, and with great morale and communication with HQ.

[cbelva]

If you have a saved game showing the 70 minutes delay, I would like to look at it. Assault has the longest delay penalty, but70 seem excessive. I have not seen 70 minutes in any of the games I have played. That sounds more like the delay in Red Storm.