Using artillery..

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Paddington
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Using artillery..

Post by Paddington »

When people say 10% artillery.
What do they mean?

Is it that I can buy whit 10% of the points any mortar-gun?
Are planes "artillery"?
Are mortars and 75mm artillery guns "artillery"?
Do you count the FOs and machine guns that comes whit the formation to "artillery"?

So far I have counted everything that comes whit the formation to be included in the cost.
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Belisarius
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Re: Using artillery..

Post by Belisarius »

Originally posted by Paddington
When people say 10% artillery.
What do they mean?

Is it that I can buy whit 10% of the points any mortar-gun?
Are planes "artillery"?
Are mortars and 75mm artillery guns "artillery"?
Do you count the FOs and machine guns that comes whit the formation to "artillery"?

So far I have counted everything that comes whit the formation to be included in the cost.


I'm not saying this is definite, but this is how I look at it.

Counts towards 10% limit:

Offboard arty
Onboard arty
Field guns
Air sections


Does not count towards 10% limit:

FO
Mortars organic to units, e.g. 50mm mortars in platoons
AT guns (and no, a 150mm tracked gun is NOT an AT weapon)
AA and AAA

Grey zone: Ammo dumps/trucks and canisters. This is usually agreed upon before battle. Some think its fair to leave them out of the 10% limit, others want them to go inside. A good point for the latter is that in that case you'll have to choose between more tubes or more ammo...

So, with the exception of organic mortars, all units that are capable of indirect fire. :)
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stevemk1a
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Post by stevemk1a »

One thing I've noticed in H2H is that a late war Panzergrenadier Company has 120mm mortars organic to it ... these may be significant enough to count towards a 10% arty limit and if so, do we draw the line at 50 to 60mm weapons, or at ~ 80mm tubes :confused:
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Post by VikingNo2 »

That is something two players need to work out, the Russian 50mm is much better than the others and the 60mm Jeep is a good arty item ( In H2H much more expnsive than in 7.1)


Might want to link it to range vise size it would be much easier if you link it that way ( IMHO )
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Belisarius
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Post by Belisarius »

Originally posted by VikingNo2
Might want to link it to range vise size it would be much easier if you link it that way ( IMHO )


Good thinking. :)

Caliber-wise, I'd draw the line for organic at 50mm. :p
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rbrunsman
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Post by rbrunsman »

Air sections, if used at all (which they shouldn't be, but I digress), should count towards your arty limit, but I'm the minority in this regard.

My rule is: If it shoots indirectly, it is counted towards your arty total. Thus, ammo dumps, etc. are not arty. FOs and MGs or transports attached to your mortar sections are not counted towards the arty limit, but unless the math is easy, I just count them towards my limit anyway. Sub-60mm mortars attached to platoons are not counted towards the limit (they aren't worth the cost IMHO except for the Russian mortars). Any US 60mm mortar is an especially deadly tool in the right hands (read my Beyond the Beachhead DAR to see how deadly they are on an assault.)
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Post by VikingNo2 »

RB is starting his 2004 campain to COUNT AIR STRIKES AS ARTY, he will be speaking at the Hooters convention in Jan. Kissing babies in Iowa in March. And in April he will be at a pastic surgery convention, he will be a guest feeler at the breAst augmentation booth, determining if you can really feel the difference. As his campain scheduler advisor ( Self appointed ) I will be scheduling him at the Hawian Tropic competention, after his Judging duties are completed we will discuss face to face how to assassinate Gary and Buzzard since we have not figured out how to beat them.


Donations can be sent to:

Air Strikes Should Count Foundation

Any extra funds will go to the All crews should die foundation

Please vote for RB ( This announcement has been paid for by the Air Stikes Should Count Foundation )
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Post by rbrunsman »

LOL :D

I have my vote!
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Post by challenge »

Later German Pzg Companies come with 80mm SP mortors. I think that would count as artillery under these guidlines. How do you seperate the cost of formation inherent artillery? looking up each gun seems a bit overkill. I'd settle for a ball park number and tend not to get overly concerned with every tube: I don't really get offended if a few extra art units find their way into the mix. Usually, I'll ask for a range like 10 to 15 %. That way you get some lattitude AND the opponent gets to make changes -- but I think I am the minority view on this.

One of the reasons I like C&C is it self-limits indirect fire. When you can only bring in two or three calls, having a massive artillery contingent becomes counter productive.

And no, airpower is not artillery. Ask anyone who flys the things if they are considered artillery. It is a ground support asset, however. So are infiltrator units. Limits on all three, seperate from each other starts, looking more like a contract negotiation instead of a battle.
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Post by rbrunsman »

Challenge, you're being "technical" by applying a dictionary definition of what "arty" is to you. When negotiating "arty" in a PBEM battle, my contention is that "arty" is a shorthand way of meaning "any indirect fire capable asset." It's just a different way of looking at it. It is not a contract negotiation (not that there is anything wrong with those ;) )

.
.
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There still should be no airstrikes in PBEM battles.

And, "Ski troops" is a dirty word.;)
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Post by Frank W. »

okay, my euro cents, too.

i always counted all arty above 81mm in the arty limit. so that small + med mortars don´t count in, that´s because these weapons were small unit assets. i mean the 81mm makes not much damage it surpresses more...

i must say i find a little problem with a 10% arty limit ( esp. in H2H where off board arty seems to be somewhat more expensive ). depending on the map the 10% are not enough to get a flowing game sometimes. let´s say you have an enemy who has taken the vic hexes fast in wooded or rough terrain, to get him out there ( if he has set up his defense properly ) you must have some arty. only this would lead to a game which flows again with attack and counterattack. otherwise perhaps the player who must take now this good protected hexes doesn´t dare to attack and this leads to a static, perhaps even boring game. this is true for points under the 4k range - i mean 400 points f. arty in H2H is not really much...

and: i would of course not count air under arty. air must be seperatly agreed on by the players. i had a nasty surprise as russian: i have 2 sturmoviks from that 1 has attacked twice and doesn´t do any damage, the other one is out of contact until turn 10 now, while my opp. has 2 m109 and killed 2 tanks and up to 20 men from me :mad:
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Post by Vathailos »

Well…

I’m of the opinion that the general consensus on this board was that small mortars (50mm) were the only things that can fire indirectly that were not counted toward a percentage limit on artillery. I hadn’t heard it put that way before, but I like the “if it can fire indirectly” caveat, with the noted 50mm exception.

81mm’s may not destroy troops left and right, but I’ve lost far too many AFVs to top-hits from 81mm’s to discount them as “light”/ineffective artillery. And they do a fair job of suppressing enemy troops (nothing in comparison to large arty or rockets, but fair considering their size).

And if you didn’t have reason enough to hate me already ;), I’m throwing a vote behind RB in the “Count Air as Arty” campaign. Why? Because it’s called for on the artillery screen! You target it/use it just like every other indirect OB piece of artillery. Granted, the planes themselves fire directly in the animation (for our benefit, because it just plain looks cool (or fearsome, depending on what end you’re on). They can’t be counter-batteried, but can be shot at/hit/shot down (and if they’re hit, they don’t come back). But in most other aspects the perform like OB artillery. Look at how you call them into use. You use the “Bombardment” key/button. They can be plotted just like artillery.

I’ve had them come in and strafe my own troops/tanks, had them miss horribly, but ask Wombat63 what 4 Sturmoviks can do. They took out 4 King Tigers, 3 Tigers (late), Elephants, Panthers, and even PzkFw III’s (and could be called every turn).

Just my two cents, US. :D
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Post by rbrunsman »

Originally posted by Frank W.
i always counted all arty above 81mm in the arty limit. so that small + med mortars don´t count in, that´s because these weapons were small unit assets. i mean the 81mm makes not much damage it surpresses more...


Tell that to my Brit M4 driver who just had a G-D Italian (ITALIAN, I say!) 81mm mortar drop right into his lap and blow his ride to pieces!

And, just wait until my 60mm mortars start to work on your Germans in our PBEM. You're going to have nightmares about that experience.:p

(That's 2 votes for the airstrikes=arty party. Me and Vat. V2's just in it for the girls. :) Who else wants to join the movement?)
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Post by Frank W. »

[i
And if you didn’t have reason enough to hate me already ;) [/B]


i really, really hate you now !!!!

any oppostition must be destroyed !

this is a challenge from me :mad: :mad:
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Oh Frank...

Post by Vathailos »

I’ll take that as a challenge Francis, and settle it on the battlefield. ;)

Pick your Nation, better yet, pick mine as well (although I prefer either GE or SO, I’ve been known to play UK on occasion). You pick the size, map, year, etc. I’d prefer most all historical settings “ON” (except rarity, but can live with C&C “OFF” if you must). I also prefer no pre-laid mines if it’s a meeting engagement. The last thing I prefer is a somewhat realistic force composition (no hoards of motorcycle troopies, etc.).

You make the call on these:

Infiltrators

Air drops

Artillery limits

Reinforcements

I look forward to showing you that air power should indeed be considered artillery. :D
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Post by Belisarius »

*rubs hands*

Vathailos vs. Frank W? :p This will be a keeper, and I'm already looking forward to the DAR! :D :D
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Post by AngryDeemon1 »

Here is how i count arty. Say 5000 points 10% of that is 500.

Russian 120mm mortar platoon (6 mortars and a hq) costs 246. Hq costs 17. SO the total points against the arty limit is (gets out yellow pad) 246-17=229. and so on.

Airstrikes are not arty! THis is why I agree to airstrikes as a seperate line item! ie 2 air sections and 10% arty.

Airstrikes are seperate if only because they are the most vulnerable Offboard Unit in the game, they can be shot down (and often are) very quickly. unlike OB arty or onboard arty. if you count air towards the arty total whats the point in comprehensive aaa?
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Post by Frank W. »

Originally posted by rbrunsman
T
And, just wait until my 60mm mortars start to work on your Germans in our PBEM. You're going to have nightmares about that experience.:p


i already have nightmares from you veteran players ( worse of course viking ) ;)

you destroyed much of my northern screening forces and the poor puma :(

but i got revenge this turn: 1 scout killed :D
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Re: Oh Frank...

Post by Frank W. »

Originally posted by Vathailos
I’ll take that as a challenge Francis, and settle it on the battlefield. ;)

Pick your Nation, better yet, pick mine as well (although I prefer either GE or SO, I’ve been known to play UK on occasion). You pick the size, map, year, etc. I’d prefer most all historical settings “ON” (except rarity, but can live with C&C “OFF” if you must). I also prefer no pre-laid mines if it’s a meeting engagement. The last thing I prefer is a somewhat realistic force composition (no hoards of motorcycle troopies, etc.).

You make the call on these:

Infiltrators

Air drops

Artillery limits

Reinforcements

I look forward to showing you that air power should indeed be considered artillery. :D


okay, let me finish my viking game before ( as i´m not able to call reeinforcements this won´t be take so long ...).

i would play the US in 44 or 45 than, you gerries ?

H2H ?

how about i´m chosing only snipers ?
this is quite realistic composition, or ? :D
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Post by Frank W. »

cheers angry deemon, at least one person on my side :)
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