Phoenix 25% Rule

[FirstPappy]

Talking about a random game that is less than 25% water results in no Shipyards.

Started a game using the size XX-Large option that I assume did not generate enough water as I am unable to build Shipyard (checked the option and it is false). However it would appear that the AI has full naval capability since it has already used a naval invasion into one of my port cities. On XX-Large there is still considerable water channels that make invasions a decent strategy. A couple of questions:

1) Is the AI purposely given this advantage? It seems like it is from the wording of the variant. If so, does the AI really need another coded "cheat" ?
2) If a random game is generated and the sea zones are edited before game start, is the 25% calculated after editing or always before?
3) Any way to give a human player shipyard capability after game start or is the only way to do it with the EDIT function before game start?

[Ormand]

It is not intended to be able to cheat. Has the AI actually built a shipyard? My intent wasn't to forbid naval operations with less than 25% sea, but to disallow building shipyards since it would seem that there should be more of a focus on land. You can still build ships in cities.

A problem is that if there is not that much sea on the map, it could be pointless for the AI to build shipyards. And, if they are allowed, how to keep the AI from building too many of them or in zones that are not really sea. One problem is that the 25% sea could be a large sea by itself, and then no other bodies of water. This was hard to work out because I am using events, not code (remember the generality of the engine means that the code doesn't know (without an interface) what a factory or a shipyard is. Vic set things up for the AI to build factories using an event rather than the AI engine (they were likely added on later). Adding shipyards was an attempt to extend this. I first had to identify places on the map where it make sense for the AI to build shipyards. I did this, again with clunky events, by sweeping through the map four times to find connected water ways that had more than three "sea" hexes connected to coastal regions. It is far more complicated with an event to do much better than this. In addition to this, the AI will only build factories on roads (rail). Thus, for fairness, the hexes where you could build a shipyard are limited to hexes identified as being connected to a sea (at least a small one) with a road on it.

The question is if the AI had built a shipyard in this game, or is it using a port city? If it is building a shipyard when they should be forbidden, then that would be a bug in the masterfile. Can you check, and/or send me the save game. BTW, you can see if opponents have built a factory. These are not really hidden in this engine.

[FirstPappy]

Checked and no shipyards. Just two factories. Then the question I have is how is the AI transporting land units over water when I can't? I'm used to building naval transports. I haven't figured out how do that without them as I am unable to build them. I have port cities and also built a port as well just to see if that enables them.

[FirstPappy]

Now I am seeing Cargo ships available to build in my port cities. Probably there all the time and I just overlooked them. All questions answered. Thank you.

[Ormand]

Glad to hear that there were no shipyards! Yes, most likely you just missed them. Probably because you thought that when the shipyards were disabled ship building was as well. And, yes, I can see that perhaps there is a problem that if you don't have a port, you will be "screwed" in that you won't be able to build ships. I might need to rethink when they are disabled. It might need to depend on the size of the map as well since on an XX-Large map, even 25% sea is a good deal of sea. Mostly, the idea was to keep it a bit fair against the AI. I tend to not use things that the AI cannot at this time, like forts or airfields (although this can be done too, I just haven't put them into Phoenix, just Four Seasons).

[FirstPappy]

"Probably because you thought that when the shipyards were disabled ship building was as well."

Exactly. Also the fact that warships were still available to be "researched" by the human player. Glad I now understand what's actually going on.

[bobarossa]

I have a related question. I think I have less than 25% water in my game. An enemy faction has a port city and is building ships and invading my territory. However, my faction does not have a port city and I seem to be unable to build shipyards to defend myself (or invade this pesky neighbor). Did you intend to forbid human players from building shipyards at <25% water?

[Ormand]

I get your point. Kind of a tricky issue. The problem being is in the opposite situation. If you can build ships and the AI can't, it makes it hard on the AI. Generally, the AI has weaknesses, and if it is at a serious disadvantage, it is all too easy to defeat. Then again, you say, who am I to dictate that you can't just whip the AI to your own delight. Good point. I am just trying to make a reasonably challenging game, and in this case a tough nut for you to crack.

The main challenge is to keep the AI from wasting too many resources on naval assets that it can't really use. Mostly, what I did with allowing shipyards is to make them buildable on a coastal hex that is connected to some form of "large" sea. But "large" can actually be fairly small. What I do is to scan the map four times, starting at each corner and working towards the opposite corner checking for coastal hexes and sea hexes connected to sea hexes. The idea here is to set up a data structure so that the AI won't build a shipyard on a coastal hex that isn't connected to some sort of sea. On avergare it will work out, but sometimes it will be a medium to large sized lake.

A complete overhaul of the AI is in the works, but not for this edition. Even then, it will be hard to balance things out.

But, let me think about it for the update.

[bobarossa]

The German AI's Capitol was on an island so it was lucky it was also a port. Was playing a 1 city start game.