How to keep PM and Rangoon in supply?

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Nezlezar
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How to keep PM and Rangoon in supply?

Post by Nezlezar »

March/April '42

I have squadrons of experienced fighters in PM and Rangoon (AVG). They do a good job of shooting down Japanese aircraft. Problem is, I can't seem to figure out how to keep both bases in supply using basic supply ships. Despite my fighter coverage, the Bettys will slip through and torp the transports. I've tried LRCAP/CAP combinations and varying altitude bands. Nothing seems to work. What am I missing?
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Re: How to keep PM and Rangoon in supply?

Post by RangerJoe »

It is difficult. You might try a high CAP to take on any escorting fighters while a low (6k) CAP is there to engage the bombers. Or just do a very low CAP if the enemy is sweeping high and not using any escorting fighters. The low CAP may avoid the sweepers while still engaging the bombers.
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Nezlezar
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Re: How to keep PM and Rangoon in supply?

Post by Nezlezar »

RangerJoe wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2024 9:25 pm It is difficult. You might try a high CAP to take on any escorting fighters while a low (6k) CAP is there to engage the bombers. Or just do a very low CAP if the enemy is sweeping high and not using any escorting fighters. The low CAP may avoid the sweepers while still engaging the bombers.
Am I correct to be using LRCAP to cover the ships as they approach the port? That seems to be where I take the most losses...The ships enter the Search Arc of Doom and there does not seem to be enough fighters to keep the ships protected. Usually, once the ships are in port, they are mostly ok. But then they have to leave and get zapped on the way out.
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Re: How to keep PM and Rangoon in supply?

Post by Platoonist »

The general rule of thumb with LRCAP is the further it has to fly to cover a TF the less likely it will. One option you can try is fast destroyer transport missions in and out of port. They can't carry much cargo, but they are fast. You can also try setting up air cargo missions, but you would need a LOT of planes to keep these bases going and the departure bases need to be built up in advance.
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Yaab
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Re: How to keep PM and Rangoon in supply?

Post by Yaab »

Rangoon:

Load a 1000 capacity xAKL in Chittagong. Move the loaded xAKL to Ramree Island. Wait there for bad weather forecast (Rain/Thundestorms) and then move at full speed to Rangoon. In Rangoon disband the TF manually. Wait for bad weather again. In bad weather, form the loaded xAKL TF in Rangoon and unload the TF in Rangoon. Disband empty TF. REform TF in bad weather. Go back to Ramree Island at full speed in bad weather.

Repeat ad nauseam.

All this time keep CAP over Rangoon. Only LRCAP those TFs that bring troops to Rangoon. Don't bother LRCAPing the xAKLs.

Port Moresby:
Create a big amphibious cargo TF in Sydney on turn 2. Load about 30k supplies. Sail to Port Moresby. Sit there for two weeks unloading the supplies over the beach. Return the empty TF to Townsville. Later, use APDs from Portland Roads on Fast Transport missions to Port Moresby.
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Re: How to keep PM and Rangoon in supply?

Post by LargeSlowTarget »

Escort the merchantmen with warships (those with good AA values) embedded in the cargo TF and provide LRCAP air cover from CVs patrolling in the approaches 6-8 hexes from the destination.
Nezlezar
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Re: How to keep PM and Rangoon in supply?

Post by Nezlezar »

Yaab wrote: Wed Apr 03, 2024 5:21 am Rangoon:

Load a 1000 capacity xAKL in Chittagong. Move the loaded xAKL to Ramree Island. Wait there for bad weather forecast (Rain/Thundestorms) and then move at full speed to Rangoon. In Rangoon disband the TF manually. Wait for bad weather again. In bad weather, form the loaded xAKL TF in Rangoon and unload the TF in Rangoon. Disband empty TF. REform TF in bad weather. Go back to Ramree Island at full speed in bad weather.

Repeat ad nauseam.

All this time keep CAP over Rangoon. Only LRCAP those TFs that bring troops to Rangoon. Don't bother LRCAPing the xAKLs.

Port Moresby:
Create a big amphibious cargo TF in Sydney on turn 2. Load about 30k supplies. Sail to Port Moresby. Sit there for two weeks unloading the supplies over the beach. Return the empty TF to Townsville. Later, use APDs from Portland Roads on Fast Transport missions to Port Moresby.
Sounds like a plan!
Nezlezar
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Re: How to keep PM and Rangoon in supply?

Post by Nezlezar »

Yaab wrote: Wed Apr 03, 2024 5:21 am Rangoon:

Load a 1000 capacity xAKL in Chittagong. Move the loaded xAKL to Ramree Island. Wait there for bad weather forecast (Rain/Thundestorms) and then move at full speed to Rangoon. In Rangoon disband the TF manually. Wait for bad weather again. In bad weather, form the loaded xAKL TF in Rangoon and unload the TF in Rangoon. Disband empty TF. REform TF in bad weather. Go back to Ramree Island at full speed in bad weather.

Repeat ad nauseam.

All this time keep CAP over Rangoon. Only LRCAP those TFs that bring troops to Rangoon. Don't bother LRCAPing the xAKLs.

Port Moresby:
Create a big amphibious cargo TF in Sydney on turn 2. Load about 30k supplies. Sail to Port Moresby. Sit there for two weeks unloading the supplies over the beach. Return the empty TF to Townsville. Later, use APDs from Portland Roads on Fast Transport missions to Port Moresby.
Betty still took the ships for a dance underwater around Rangoon. Is the above just a means to mitigate the losses and not as something that would work every time? Just want to make sure I didn't do something wrong.
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Re: How to keep PM and Rangoon in supply?

Post by BBfanboy »

You are in March/April 42, much later than the Turn 2 timeframe RJ gave for the convoy to PM. Gotta get there before Ms Betty and Ms Nell get a base within about 25 Hexes of PM.
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Re: How to keep PM and Rangoon in supply?

Post by Platoonist »

Nezlezar wrote: Wed Apr 03, 2024 6:58 pm Betty still took the ships for a dance underwater around Rangoon. Is the above just a means to mitigate the losses and not as something that would work every time? Just want to make sure I didn't do something wrong.
Mitigation. It's kinda like the Murmansk Run to Russia. To achieve the larger goal of delivering supplies you have to be willing to accept some merchant losses be they from aircraft, submarines or the occasional surface fleet. A human player would likely have multiple surface groups running interference to make it very difficult. The AI often sends bombardment TFs to Port Moresby which have the same effect. However, the more fighter groups you can support at these bases the less the threat from the Netties.

Submarine cargo runs are also an option but outside of the three US subs that can be converted to transports they only carry a thimbleful of supply at a time. Still, every bit helps.

With wonderful hindsight the thing to do is squirrel as much supply into these spots before the Japanese air threat really gets near. However, Rangoon is already on the front line with Bangkok so close.
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Re: How to keep PM and Rangoon in supply?

Post by RangerJoe »

You can also have carriers stocked with lots of fighters escort the cargo ships until they are one turn of movement away from the destination. Then the carrier TF returns to safety while the cargo ships make a speed run to the destination. Then either unload or disband the TF while waiting for favorable weather to unload the ships. Of course, it also depends upon whether or not you are playing against a human or the AI.
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Yaab
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Re: How to keep PM and Rangoon in supply?

Post by Yaab »

Nezlezar wrote: Wed Apr 03, 2024 6:58 pm
Yaab wrote: Wed Apr 03, 2024 5:21 am Rangoon:

Load a 1000 capacity xAKL in Chittagong. Move the loaded xAKL to Ramree Island. Wait there for bad weather forecast (Rain/Thundestorms) and then move at full speed to Rangoon. In Rangoon disband the TF manually. Wait for bad weather again. In bad weather, form the loaded xAKL TF in Rangoon and unload the TF in Rangoon. Disband empty TF. REform TF in bad weather. Go back to Ramree Island at full speed in bad weather.

Repeat ad nauseam.

All this time keep CAP over Rangoon. Only LRCAP those TFs that bring troops to Rangoon. Don't bother LRCAPing the xAKLs.

Port Moresby:
Create a big amphibious cargo TF in Sydney on turn 2. Load about 30k supplies. Sail to Port Moresby. Sit there for two weeks unloading the supplies over the beach. Return the empty TF to Townsville. Later, use APDs from Portland Roads on Fast Transport missions to Port Moresby.
Betty still took the ships for a dance underwater around Rangoon. Is the above just a means to mitigate the losses and not as something that would work every time? Just want to make sure I didn't do something wrong.
It should work 90% of the time. If you still lose ships, do this:

-check the detection level (DL) of Ramree Island. If you see any detection level this means Jap recon/bombers overfly Ramree. In my example, Ramree has 0 DL o 1 DL, since Jap aircraft in my game only overfly Rangoon.

-if Japs overfly Ramree, you can disband your xAKL TF once it arrives in Ramree from Chittagong. My undisbanded xAKL TFs waiting for bad weather in Ramree have 0 DL.

-check the DL of your xAKL TFs making the full speed run from Ramree to Rangoon. Any jump in DL means Japs overfly heavily the approaches to Rangoon. In my example my xAKL TF arrving in Rangoon have DL 3 (very low), and I disband them immediately in Rangoon.

If this doesn't help, switch from xAKL to a durable xAK ships (durability 22-23) with heavy DP (dual-purpose guns) and 20mm Oerlikon guns AND add an escort ship (possibly high-AA KV or DE). Pay attention to DP and 20mm placements - you want to have AA guns covering each side of a ship. Sometime DP gun covers either Forward or Rear -you want both. 20mm should be on Sides, sometimes they are in Center position which sucks.

Remember, that a fully loaded cargo ships catches more fires frombomb hits. You can use a big xAK and load 30-50% of its capacity. Thus, if Japs hit it with a 250kg bomb, the fires will not be that catastrophic.

If your ships still get sunk, fly supplies from Ledo to Myitkina and the supplies will migrate from Myitkina to Rangoon.

BTW, I had to use those bad weather shenanigans because without them, my xAKLs were whacked by invisible Jap nav search aircraft
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Re: How to keep PM and Rangoon in supply?

Post by Nezlezar »

Yaab wrote: Sat Apr 06, 2024 6:49 am
Nezlezar wrote: Wed Apr 03, 2024 6:58 pm
Yaab wrote: Wed Apr 03, 2024 5:21 am Rangoon:

Load a 1000 capacity xAKL in Chittagong. Move the loaded xAKL to Ramree Island. Wait there for bad weather forecast (Rain/Thundestorms) and then move at full speed to Rangoon. In Rangoon disband the TF manually. Wait for bad weather again. In bad weather, form the loaded xAKL TF in Rangoon and unload the TF in Rangoon. Disband empty TF. REform TF in bad weather. Go back to Ramree Island at full speed in bad weather.

Repeat ad nauseam.

All this time keep CAP over Rangoon. Only LRCAP those TFs that bring troops to Rangoon. Don't bother LRCAPing the xAKLs.

Port Moresby:
Create a big amphibious cargo TF in Sydney on turn 2. Load about 30k supplies. Sail to Port Moresby. Sit there for two weeks unloading the supplies over the beach. Return the empty TF to Townsville. Later, use APDs from Portland Roads on Fast Transport missions to Port Moresby.
Betty still took the ships for a dance underwater around Rangoon. Is the above just a means to mitigate the losses and not as something that would work every time? Just want to make sure I didn't do something wrong.
It should work 90% of the time.
Remember, that a fully loaded cargo ships catches more fires frombomb hits. You can use a big xAK and load 30-50% of its capacity. Thus, if Japs hit it with a 250kg bomb, the fires will not be that catastrophic.

Excellent information as always, thank you.

How do I limit the loading of the ships though? Anytime I load them they tend to fill up by the next turn. I use 2 day turns. Do I need to switch to 1 day and undock them to slow the loading or is there an easier way?
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Re: How to keep PM and Rangoon in supply?

Post by RangerJoe »

Load them as amphibious and you only get 80% of the load.
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Re: How to keep PM and Rangoon in supply?

Post by Yaab »

Nezlezar, you can load big xAK ships in smaller ports.

For example, Colombo (Ceylon) will probably load a big xAK in one turn. Same ship loading in Chittagong may take i.e. three turns to load 100%. Thus, you stop loading the ship in Chittagong after one day and the ship will be 30% loaded.
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Re: How to keep PM and Rangoon in supply?

Post by Bella »

Yaab wrote: Wed Apr 03, 2024 5:21 am Rangoon:

Load a 1000 capacity xAKL in Chittagong. Move the loaded xAKL to Ramree Island. Wait there for bad weather forecast (Rain/Thundestorms) and then move at full speed to Rangoon. In Rangoon disband the TF manually. Wait for bad weather again. In bad weather, form the loaded xAKL TF in Rangoon and unload the TF in Rangoon. Disband empty TF. REform TF in bad weather. Go back to Ramree Island at full speed in bad weather.

Repeat ad nauseam.

All this time keep CAP over Rangoon. Only LRCAP those TFs that bring troops to Rangoon. Don't bother LRCAPing the xAKLs.

Port Moresby:
Create a big amphibious cargo TF in Sydney on turn 2. Load about 30k supplies. Sail to Port Moresby. Sit there for two weeks unloading the supplies over the beach. Return the empty TF to Townsville. Later, use APDs from Portland Roads on Fast Transport missions to Port Moresby.
Warships attract Nells and Bettys like flies. Even with heavy escort from Rangoon, they still get hit, and also the cargo ships they accompany. Best just send in fast AKLs in bad weather.
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Re: How to keep PM and Rangoon in supply?

Post by BBfanboy »

And TFs with single xAKLs often get missed by Naval Search.
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Re: How to keep PM and Rangoon in supply?

Post by Bella »

I’ve found that small AKL cargo TFs work well to supply Rangoon.
2-3 ships, carrying a 1000 supply each. They can dock, and they unload fast. You’re out of there in two turns. But don’t do it until you have at least some good CAP over Rangoon. I now have two AVG and two Hurricane squadrons in Rangoon now, with a P-39 sq. I use occasionally for hitting at Japanese transports. But I started with just the two AVG squadrons. Warships draw the Japanese like flies, but the little AKLs slip though. Only lost one so far.
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Re: How to keep PM and Rangoon in supply?

Post by Jellicoe »

Agree with Bella and BBFanboy

I have had good results with single or pairs of AKLs getting into Rangoon against the AI against air opposition. As mentioned some level of CAP is handy to cover the final run in. Using Chittagong or Calcutta also makes for a shorter and safer approach too. Be warned however that the AI also likes to send decent surface groups ranging up the Burmese coast and I have lost more than a few AK's to these as well as some nasty surface combat actions that have not always gone well

Having said that for my last couple of campaigns I have ceded Burma without a fight to give the AI more of a chance and to do some different things such as fighting over the Indian/Burmese border
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Re: How to keep PM and Rangoon in supply?

Post by Moltrey »

All good ideas above. You just have to know going in as Allies it will be a tough nut. The Japanese will have a range advantage over you so it puts the Allies on the backfoot from Day One.
Not an easy situation when you are not far from the enemy like in Rangoon. There aren't any magic bullets or "safe" options, just know you will take a lot of lumps. It is a bit easier early for Port Moresby until you can get some APDs in Australia to run your Aussie Express.
I do like the sneaky ideas; they don't risk much in using 1000t capacity xAKL ships and you shouldn't run out of them anytime soon.
As was mentioned, look for opportunities to upgrade certain merchant classes to get some better AAA capability. The sooner you start wearing down the IJ air forces the better.
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