China, and Land Combat in General

[Admiral DadMan]

Two of my greatest frustrations with this game have been how China is handled, and land combat in general.

First, is the strategy of encircling Chunking to force the Allied player out of the country essentially, as there is (to my knowledge and experience) no alternate base for destroyed units to reform at. As the IJA, all you have to do is mass your armies, encircle, then invest Chunking, so that by the end of 1942, the city can be starved into submission. Rescue missions fail and breakouts are impossible. Which brings me to my second point.

Second, to trap units in a hex, all one needs to do is send a fast unit around the other 5 hexes to "flip" them, and now the entrapped units cannot escape, even if the hex is left unoccupied. Essentially, you race around the perimeter with a torch in your hand yelling "fire fire fire!" and viola', encirclement.

Am I missing something?

[RangerJoe]

Two of my greatest frustrations with this game have been how China is handled, and land combat in general.

First, is the strategy of encircling Chunking to force the Allied player out of the country essentially, as there is (to my knowledge and experience) no alternate base for destroyed units to reform at. As the IJA, all you have to do is mass your armies, encircle, then invest Chunking, so that by the end of 1942, the city can be starved into submission. Rescue missions fail and breakouts are impossible. Which brings me to my second point.

Second, to trap units in a hex, all one needs to do is send a fast unit around the other 5 hexes to "flip" them, and now the entrapped units cannot escape, even if the hex is left unoccupied. Essentially, you race around the perimeter with a torch in you hand yelling "fire fire fire!" and viola', encirclement.

Am I missing something?

China has another base for its reinforcements to come in as its home base. I do believe that it is Chengtu (I have yet to install the game on my new computer) which is in the Central Plateau not far from Chungking. However, units won't show up there until Chungking is captured. It is closer to India so it may have a better chance of surviving with flown in supplies.

To change colors in the hex borders, a unit has to march through it. For Chungking and many other places, that may mean a shock attack. It should require a unit with AV but it does not. But a decent Chinese stack could be placed in good defensive terrain where it could prevent the close surrounding of Chungking but it could still be surrounded although with a larger perimeter.

[Yaab]

Admiral DadMan, you have to remember that destroyed Chinese units resurrect in Chungking. This means the Chinese surrounded in Chungking will have (-) supply maluses in combat, since too many Chinese units will compete for supplies in Chungking.

Moreover, resurrected units will arrive with no field artillery/MMG squads owing to their VERY LOW build rates, further reducing their effectiveness in battles.

You really have to:
-save your starting field artillery devices
-build up Chungking to airfield level 9 to hold unlimited supplies, and fly in supplies from India/rail from Burma
-move weak corps out of Chungking prior to the final battle and trek them to India

[Admiral DadMan]

Admiral DadMan, you have to remember that destroyed Chinese units resurrect in Chungking. This means the Chinese surrounded in Chungking will have (-) supply maluses in combat, since too many Chinese units will compete for supplies in Chungking.

Moreover, resurrected units will arrive with no field artillery/MMG squads owing to their VERY LOW build rates, further reducing their effectiveness in battles.

You really have to:
-save your starting field artillery devices
-build up Chungking to airfield level 9 to hold unlimited supplies, and fly in supplies from India/rail from Burma
-move weak corps out of Chungking prior to the final battle and trek them to India

Ugh. 15 years playing this game and I STILL did not learn this.

Thank you and Joe for the insight.

[btd64]

Admiral DadMan, you have to remember that destroyed Chinese units resurrect in Chungking. This means the Chinese surrounded in Chungking will have (-) supply maluses in combat, since too many Chinese units will compete for supplies in Chungking.

Moreover, resurrected units will arrive with no field artillery/MMG squads owing to their VERY LOW build rates, further reducing their effectiveness in battles.

You really have to:
-save your starting field artillery devices
-build up Chungking to airfield level 9 to hold unlimited supplies, and fly in supplies from India/rail from Burma
-move weak corps out of Chungking prior to the final battle and trek them to India

Ugh. 15 years playing this game and I STILL did not learn this.


Thank you and Joe for the insight.

Don't worry about it Scot. I hate the china theater....GP

[RangerJoe]

Admiral DadMan, you have to remember that destroyed Chinese units resurrect in Chungking. This means the Chinese surrounded in Chungking will have (-) supply maluses in combat, since too many Chinese units will compete for supplies in Chungking.

Moreover, resurrected units will arrive with no field artillery/MMG squads owing to their VERY LOW build rates, further reducing their effectiveness in battles.

You really have to:
-save your starting field artillery devices
-build up Chungking to airfield level 9 to hold unlimited supplies, and fly in supplies from India/rail from Burma
-move weak corps out of Chungking prior to the final battle and trek them to India

Ugh. 15 years playing this game and I STILL did not learn this.


Thank you and Joe for the insight.

Don't worry about it Scot. I hate the china theater....GP

That is only because you watch all of those really cheap Chinese martial arts movies where the lips don't move when they are speaking . . .

[btd64]

Ugh. 15 years playing this game and I STILL did not learn this.


Thank you and Joe for the insight.

Don't worry about it Scot. I hate the china theater....GP

That is only because you watch all of those really cheap Chinese martial arts movies where the lips don't move when they are speaking . . .

Ha ha ha ha ha. ....GP

[dr.hal]

Don't worry about it Scot. I hate the china theater....GP

GP it pains me to read your input! True China is not the "sexy" theater of operations, it doesn't have lots of boats, subs, and other shinny toys BUT if playing Japan it's the key to "VICTORY"!!!! OK, not victory but staying alive till forty five!!! If the Japs can knock China out of the game it frees up assets, resources and the "silk road"!! To me it's a key factor in a "successful" Japanese strategy, Thoughts? Thus you can "hate" it as a theater, but it's the key to open the door to VICTORY (or stave off inevitable defeat)......Hal

[btd64]

Don't worry about it Scot. I hate the china theater....GP

GP it pains me to read your input! True China is not the "sexy" theater of operations, it doesn't have lots of boats, subs, and other shinny toys BUT if playing Japan it's the key to "VICTORY"!!!! OK, not victory but staying alive till forty five!!! If the Japs can knock China out of the game it frees up assets, resources and the "silk road"!! To me it's a key factor in a "successful" Japanese strategy, Thoughts? Thus you can "hate" it as a theater, but it's the key to open the door to VICTORY (or stave off inevitable defeat)......Hal
[/quote]

You make a good point. Don't get me wrong, I fight hard in China....GP

[RangerJoe]

Don't worry about it Scot. I hate the china theater....GP

GP it pains me to read your input! True China is not the "sexy" theater of operations, it doesn't have lots of boats, subs, and other shinny toys BUT if playing Japan it's the key to "VICTORY"!!!! OK, not victory but staying alive till forty five!!! If the Japs can knock China out of the game it frees up assets, resources and the "silk road"!! To me it's a key factor in a "successful" Japanese strategy, Thoughts? Thus you can "hate" it as a theater, but it's the key to open the door to VICTORY (or stave off inevitable defeat)......Hal

The "Silk Road" heads to Europe, what I think that you mean is referred to as the "Magic Highway" where the resources move towards Manchuria and Korea.

[dr.hal]

I'm well aware of what the "silk road" was, that's why its in quotes. I was making a parallel reference to its historic supply of much desired Chinese products to distant lands (in relation to this game: Japan). I guess I was being too opaque.

[RangerJoe]

I'm well aware of what the "silk road" was, that's why its in quotes. I was making a parallel reference to its historic supply of much desired Chinese products to distant lands (in relation to this game: Japan). I guess I was being too opaque.

I understood and I understand now why you used it but new players may not understand the reference.

[Admiral DadMan]

Well, I got bumrushed, so Chengtu is occupied.

This opponent is very skilled in China and this is the second game that he's done it to me with no strategy that I have used has been effective to stop it.

The other issue I have is the tactic of encircling a hex and entrapping the units inside without the ability to attempt a breakthrough.

[PaxMondo]

Well, I got bumrushed, so Chengtu is occupied.

This opponent is very skilled in China and this is the second game that he's done it to me with no strategy that I have used has been effective to stop it.

The other issue I have is the tactic of encircling a hex and entrapping the units inside without the ability to attempt a breakthrough.

Hey DadMan,
So, don't get too upset. Face it, this is first and foremost a naval game to which air and then ground combat was added to meet the scope of the concept. Given this background, which I think you are familiar with, the whole "encirclement" issue is just what it is. However, if you go back in history to the hex-based land combat games of 20 some odd years ago, this was not an unusual solution to the whole hexside ownership issue. That has been completely outmoded since then, but this is a +20 year old model. AE made a huge update with Ian on the air model, but I never heard that anything significant was done to the ground model. Hence, "it is what it is". Sorry man ....

Edit: oh, I forgot... I think that Kunming is also a landing spot for CHI units after CK and CT. Hopefully, someone can verify this for us ...

[Yaab]

Well, I got bumrushed, so Chengtu is occupied.

This opponent is very skilled in China and this is the second game that he's done it to me with no strategy that I have used has been effective to stop it.

The other issue I have is the tactic of encircling a hex and entrapping the units inside without the ability to attempt a breakthrough.

No shame in losing. In stock GCs, China is nigh impossible to defend as Allies. You only win there if your opponenet has zero interest in the Chinese front.

[Platoonist]

The war in China is a difficult thing to simulate in any game since for a long period between the spring of 1941 and the Ichi-Go offensive of 1944 it devolved into something of an undeclared truce which was broken briefly by the vengeance campaign in the Chuchow area in April 1942 following the Doolittle Raid. The Japanese contemplated following the Chuchow offensive with an offensive against Chungking, but this was canceled due to the deteriorating situation in the Pacific. Until 1944 the Japanese army became mostly an occupation force. Chiang Kai-shek was also content to sit back at this point and let the Allies win the war for him so he could beat up on the Reds instead. However, gamers are loathe to see their armies just lay about and consume rice. They want to change history, so a Japanese player will push his army forward in a way his historical counterpart never did or could.