Sea Power

[sfbaytf]

Some preview videos out on YouTube. A while back devs asked about 3D graphics and CMO.

Gotta say watching the preview videos I did think it would be pretty cool if CMO was sorta like it but it would be massive work to get all the 3D images created.

WARNO was also mentioned. I recently bought it on sale and it’s pretty. It’s more rts though but I could see its potential for CMO.

While I mentioned that 3D wasn’t a big deal I could see how it would probably increase interest. Many purests won’t like it I suspect.

[thewood1]

Sea Power has been in development for years and I'm very skeptical it will come out as a finished product. It also has a very narrow timeframe of coverage. Its barely a breath in the CMO world. Take the 3D unit development of a couple hundred units in Sea Power and try to scale that to the detail and scale of tens of thousands of units in CMO. And there is no news on how accurate the planning process and unit behavior is compared to any real-life decision-making.

As to WARNO, which I own and have played, the concessions made for online play balance completely ruin the experience for anyone looking for tactical decision-making anything close to reality. Weapon ranges are significantly impinged, no thermal imaging, units move way too fast, etc. As with all Eugene games, its built for the hypercompetitive online RTS crowd. There is almost no planning or tactical decision-making. Its all deck building and unit rushes. Watch the discussion threads and its all bout "buffing" and "nerfing". As soon as I see those words, I know what kind of game its become.

I actually enjoy playing RTS games and truly have some fun with Eugene games, but I hesitate to even mention them in the same breath as CMO, Armored Brigade, Steel Beasts, Combat Mission, etc.

[sfbaytf]

Warno is rts and can easily become a spam fest. It’s not hardcore by any means. I play on slow speed and would like to see it implement wego but I doubt that’s going to happen. It would be great to have that option.

Sea Power looks like a successor to Jane’s Fleet Command. It does have an editor and if modable expect more modern stuff added.

With Task Force Admiral coming out the naval area is getting some 2024 treatment.

It will be interesting to see if the next version of CMO-if it’s out there will venture into the 3D realm. Artform changes can be controversial. Civ 6 ventured into a new art form and purists hated it. I don’t like it myself but the player counts tells a different story.

In the end the effort that would have to be put into making CMO more graphically appealing and accurate would be immense and the effort would have to be financially worthwhile. Many of us used to older stuff can deal with what’s here and now but younger player base used to more graphically appealing fare may be another story.

Having something like Sea Power and ability to have replays that could be made into YouTube videos would generate interest.

[thewood1]

There is no way that developing 3D models for 10,000 units financially viable or even aligning with market demand. Again, you are putting a lot of expectations for a game that MIGHT make it out in 2025 and no one really knows what its features will be. At this point there are only really three months left in 2024.

And don't get me going on TF Admiral. Another game in perpetual development.

People continuously use games that are "about to come out" to pressure existing game deva to add their pet feature. Its the main use of Sea Power and TF Admiral right now.

[sfbaytf]

These days most products are released in less than finished condition. Unfortunate but a fact.

Keep in mind as far I I could tell the inquiry about adding graphics was from someone associated with CMO. It was here and a while back. WARNO was mentioned, but it was also made clear the intention was to not turn CMO into a RTS type game.

That's what surprised me. It sounded like the idea was being floated. Nothing promised.

[thewood1]

That was the dev asking how important the ability to have 3D models was to players. The answer was generally not.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 7#p5139177

The vote was mostly only as an option so it can be turned off. I always laugh when people say "immersion" in a game like CMO. Immersion would be standing in a room looking at a very similar graphic as CMO. You never even get close to seeing the units you command.

[tylerblakebrandon]

That was the dev asking how important the ability to have 3D models was to players. The answer was generally not.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 7#p5139177

The vote was mostly only as an option so it can be turned off. I always laugh when people say "immersion" in a game like CMO. Immersion would be standing in a room looking at a very similar graphic as CMO. You never even get close to seeing the units you command.

If you want immersion, buy a bunch of monitors and a house with a home theatre room.

[HalfLifeExpert]

I'm looking forward to Sea Power, and will buy it once it's available in Nov.

That being said, from the pre-release footage I've seen, it just won't come to the same level as Command. It seems from what I can see to be focused on the period from the early 70s to the end of Cold War One in 1989-91. This isn't a bad choice by any means, but Command just encompasses SO MUCH more!

I also really can't say no to all of the hard work put into those great 70s-80s equipment models.

I put serious thought into getting TacView Advanced for Command for the 3D view, but I just don't think it's honestly that worth it. I'd rather have the processing power devoted to the core sim than for, admittedly limited, eye-candy.

My father also has Command but he's logged far less than 5% of the time that I have, he can't get into it the same level as me, but he's excited for Sea Power. He agrees with me that it may be more approachable and manageable for someone like him than Command.

The silver lining could be that, maybe, people who enjoy Sea Power may end up taking a closer look at Command.

As for WARNO, I really enjoy it, but I'm exclusively a player of Single Player content. I don't bother with the MP. Aside from the time commitments inherent in MP, the fairplay-balance focus of the costs of units makes for frustratingly unrealistic deployments. I'm struggling to hold back an enemy drive while ive got several Abrams just sitting on their ass behind the lines because I don't have enough "points" to bring them forward.

The "Army General" campaign massively corrects this by having a much more reasonable and straight forward unit cost system.

But in the end, as much as I love WARNO for it's setting and units to play with, it is not a Sim of the likes such as Armored Brigade. It is an RTS first. And that's okay.

[thewood1]

I really liked Steel Division 2, one of the predecessors to WARNO. But any game that doesn't at least consider some form of implementation of thermal imaging in the 1980-2000 timeframe isn't even trying. It completely hobbles NATO and moots a major investment decision that differentiates WP and NATO. That and range nerfing is the main reason I look at WARNO as just a reskinning of Steel Div. 2...a reskin of Steel Div. Normandy.

[thewood1]

btw, I have a strong suspicion that 3D graphics aren't what's keeping a stampede of players from playing CMO. CMO is a lot more complex and does not align with many of the myths people have about modern warfare. How many times have we heard, "why has 'my favorite weapon' been nerfed?" or some form.

[HalfLifeExpert]

btw, I have a strong suspicion that 3D graphics aren't what's keeping a stampede of players from playing CMO. CMO is a lot more complex and does not align with many of the myths people have about modern warfare. How many times have we heard, "why has 'my favorite weapon' been nerfed?" or some form.

Fair point. I can't imagine how angry the Wargame/WARNO fanbase would be upon playing Command, so many of them are so nationalistic it's sickening.

Command does have a learning curve for sure, but the great counterweight to it is the freedom to take as much time as you need.

While acknowledging the realism limitations of WARNO, I mainly enjoy it for the accessibility of a military theme/setting that I LOVE.

[sfbaytf]

Looking at the preview videos there are platforms in Sea Power that never existed in real life so it’s not trying to be hard core accurate.

Taking it for what it is a successor to Fleet Command and enjoying it for what it is. It’s probably going to do well and if it does we’ll probably see an add on like the Falklands.

I’m mostly interested in WARNO for Army General and single player at slow speed. Multi player doesn’t interest me. Regiments which covers same period and is single player focused is much better than WARNO imo.

I’m just looking forward to more naval stuff and think it’s good we’re seeing more variety.

[Dimitris]

I’m just looking forward to more naval stuff and think it’s good we’re seeing more variety.

I agree. I really like what I see on the videos etc. so far. Most likely a Day-1 purchase. It is looking to be aiming at a different audience than CMO and I think it is going to do very well with that crowd.

We need games like SP (and Fleet Command before it) and Cold Waters (and RSR before it) just as much as we need games like CMO (and Harpoon before it). Far more than we need e.g. yet another FPS or esports-oriented clickfests.

[thewood1]

My point isn't that we don't need a game like Sea Power or that I won't buy it. Its the collective loss of memory about games that have taken five years to develop and the expectations being set for it. It will lead to nothing but disappointment.

[schweggy]

Any commentary on "Modern Naval Warfare" being developed over at Slitherine? Graphically it looks pretty nice. No idea about realism or gameplay. I think there's only one platform (Virginia class SSN) that's playable. So limited in that respect.

[kahta]

I am excited about this game and it'll be a day 1 purchase, but CMO has set a very high bar that's going to be hard for to overcome. I cut my teeth on Fleet command (CD-ROM) when I bought it with my allowance as part of a Jane's multi pack from a physical store. I then got into the Harpoon series after I found out about it with the newfangled Internet when I was in middle school after reading Red Storm Rising and looking for a game that could simulate the battles in that book.

My personal preference is to play intellectually challenging games with as much realism as possible, and from what I've seen about SP, it doesn't look nearly as "serious" as CMO.

[kahta]

If you want immersion, buy a bunch of monitors and a house with a home theatre room.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who has a setup with 3 monitors specifically for playing CMO

[thewood1]

The comparison I use is Sea Power is to CMO like "Gunner, Heat, PC" is to Steel Beasts in the tank sim market. More than one step above arcade, but people worried about factoring in cockpit visibility or detailed defensive maneuvering in CMO aren't going cut Sea Power much slack.

In the end, it'll be an intro to naval tactics with people wanting more coming to CMO.

[thewood1]

Any commentary on "Modern Naval Warfare" being developed over at Slitherine? Graphically it looks pretty nice. No idea about realism or gameplay. I think there's only one platform (Virginia class SSN) that's playable. So limited in that respect.

MNW is more a sub sim. Some of the mods for Cold Water were kind of a heavily abstracted naval tactics game, but still only a modded sub sim game. Plus they are almost the opposite of the Sea Power devs in how they communicate. Long stretches of time between updates and has been in development 4-5 years.

[sfbaytf]

CMO is in a class of its own and can simulate on a scale that Sea Power probably can't handle.

Sometimes though you want a "lighter" sim/game to play. From what I've seen its pretty engaging to see missiles in the air while ships put out missile, AA fire and chaff.

While you'll see helos coming out of hangars it look like you won't be waiting on realistic time to take off, but we'll just have to wait and see. Damage models and realism who knows but I don't think most people are going to care too much. I did see that when ships are hit and sinking life rafts with survivors appear so we may see helos picking up survivors.

Also looks like lots of land based air assets will be included.