AO unit. How close is too close?

Klinkenhoffen · Post by **Klinkenhoffen** » Mon Sep 01, 2003 6:17 am

Hello all,

I am interested in your views on where you position the AO unit.

I understand that you don't want to put it in harms way but it does give a moral/rally advantage. How closes to the front line is too close (and this goes for company comanders too) ?

If your name is Mother please do not read on. I tend to have the A0 close to the action. All it takes is a few small mistakes / luck from the enemy and suddenly no more AO. I have lost the AO on several occasions to this.

Is the AO that important that you don't wont it at the front to assist?

Klinkenhoffen

stevemk1a · Post by **stevemk1a** » Mon Sep 01, 2003 10:05 am

I always place my A0 (with one FO adjacent) somewhere cozy and safe, but not too far from any onboard arty ... I would also be interested to hear other views on A0 placement, I tend to be very protective of this unit and usually have some forces set aside for mobile rear security positioned near the A0. It would be interesting to hear about other player's usage of the 'Head shed' ... can anyone make an argument for more aggressive use of the HQ unit?

El_Peco · Post by **El_Peco** » Mon Sep 01, 2003 12:50 pm

I agree with Willy, my HQ and my FO, are always in the back of my formations.
Usually they have not firepower to support other units and above all the loss of HQ costs 200 points!
Instead for company commanders I try to put them back others company platoons, but ready to support an engage when it is needed.

Regards.

Resisti · Post by **Resisti** » Mon Sep 01, 2003 2:57 pm

A bit more "aggressive" use of AO, as far as rallying is concerned, is to allow him with a command car, or any other reasonably fast mean of transport, so that you can move it where is REALLY needed, but still granting it a good chance to be extracted from the heat of the battle in time.

Toontje · Post by **Toontje** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 2:12 am

If I can spare 10 points I give mine a transportation and keep it hidden. And ready to use the transportation to help rally if there is a VERY pressing need. I'd rather lose a bigass tank as they cost less points.

Klinkenhoffen · Post by **Klinkenhoffen** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 6:21 am

Side steping from the main topic, wouldn't you rather have your forward observer up front with the troops to call in the arty? FO 's give a quicker responce and do the spotting for better targetting.

stevemk1a · Post by **stevemk1a** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 6:51 am

I usually purchase a few FO's, so only the one with the highest experience is stationed with the HQ ... the others are sent forth to observe the enemy and call in the big noise ..

peter hellman · Post by **peter hellman** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 7:53 pm

Good answers here already. I also choose to have a fast transport available for the AO, and one of the FO's near.

If I have a reserve, as I almost always has (and it'd rather be a mobile one), I have the AO to ride along with it. The reserve also provides for security for the AO, unless the reserve is placed very near the front in the beginning of the game.

I try to use the company commanders for rallying, but also sometimes bring up the AO to boost the process.

And NEVER leave the AO all by himself, and not in the most obvious terrain for partisans to pop up either. And turn the weapons range to 0, but not off.

That's how I do it.

rbrunsman · Post by **rbrunsman** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 9:28 pm

The A0 is simply too valuable to risk in any combat action, or even moving him around much, IMHO. I never race him around to help reduce suppression. The help he provides is likely to be minimal. And, where are you likely to send him? Where he is needed most. Which is exacly where your opponent is probably kicking your ***. If your opponent breaks through (against the valiant efforts of you A0 to rally the men) and stumbles upon your A0, you are going to have one dead A0. The result of that is that you are probably going to lose the game.

The A0 is better left in the rear with an FO around him, keeping the arty in contact. An "in contact" arty park is going to do you more good than any A0 running around risking death for a slightly better chance at a rally.

**** Warning **** the strong opinion expressed above, applies only to battles with C&C off. I make no claims about the A0's usefulness with C&C on.

Jamminji · Post by **Jamminji** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 1:06 am

Hi all...

This thread is great... I have always wondered just how important the A0 is... Acording to RB if you lose the A0 you might lose the battle! But El_Peco said "Above All" it is 200 points. I am confused... Just what exactly makes the A0 unit soooo valuable? I have played games where my A0 has died and I still won or at least got a draw. I thought that my moral would break but that did not happen, so what is so good about this squad? So important?

jam

rbrunsman · Post by **rbrunsman** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 2:59 am

Loss of the A0 will effect the Russians more than the US or early/mid war Germans. You will start to see a general low level of suppression start to creep up on your units even if they aren't engaged by the enemy. The Germans and US can rally out of this state, but other countries may not fair so well. I imagine, your arty will lose contact more often and for longer. Also, if the other player makes a quick grab at all the VHs, then the game ends automatically at the end of the turn. I've won several games that way.

The loss of 200 pts is rarely the deciding factor in a game, so I would rate that a rather low consequence of the loss of my A0. (It is, however, an easy 200 pts for your opponent to grab though.)

It isn't catastrophic to an otherwise winning game for you if you lose your A0, but it sure accellerates the losing process if you toss him into the front lines to shore up a crumbling front.

challenge · Post by **challenge** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 3:56 am

The A0 provides more than added rally capability. With good radio coverage having it near the front is less important, but with nationalities with fewer radios it needs to stay in contact to use the added Command Points.

The added CPs are used for artilly calls, changing stance and objective hexes. This means that a unit close to the A0 has additional points to make those changes or call in added arty where it's needed. The accumulative effect is very noticable when using C&C. The FO you put near the A0 could call in almost twice as much arty as one out of contact, and is more likely to be in contact to begin with.

Since the chain of command runs from the platoon, through the Company commander to the A0, losing company level command becomes more problematic with C&C. An A0, located closer to the platoons effected by the loss of the Co com, is able to lend its CPs to the unit -- the chain just passes the broken link.

In short, not only do you have the disadvantages mentioned earlier -- moral and possibly easier game loss -- but the loss of the command points drastically cuts your effectiveness in other areas as well.

Jamminji · Post by **Jamminji** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 8:24 am

That is what I was thinking... Playing with C&C ON would make the A0 MUCH more valuable.

I did not know about the quick game endwhen the A0 dies and the VHs are taken! That is something to consider!

pbhawkin1 · Post by **pbhawkin1** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 11:49 am

I use my AO unit up in the 'second line' for the same reasons as above. BUT having recently discovered C&C and in light of what happened in a recent game where my opponents force moral broke (he was USA) at turn 5 and taking into regard what RBrunsman said I may play with it a bit further back!!:D:

pbhawkins

Klinkenhoffen · Post by **Klinkenhoffen** » Thu Sep 04, 2003 10:12 am

This is all good information.
I see being mobile could just be a disaster rather than a help.

But being too far back could be a hinderance as well. I'll try a ballance of not at the front or rear and not too mobile next time.

Klink

MOTHER · Post by **MOTHER** » Sat Sep 06, 2003 10:48 am

Klinks ,the closer to the front the better- especially when you play me!

pb - 5 turns,dont remind me,i still have nightmares! :rolleyes:

Charles2222 · Post by **Charles2222** » Sat Sep 06, 2003 9:31 pm

rbrunsman wrote:The A0 is simply too valuable to risk in any combat action, or even moving him around much, IMHO. I never race him around to help reduce suppression. The help he provides is likely to be minimal. And, where are you likely to send him? Where he is needed most. Which is exacly where your opponent is probably kicking your ***. If your opponent breaks through (against the valiant efforts of you A0 to rally the men) and stumbles upon your A0, you are going to have one dead A0. The result of that is that you are probably going to lose the game.

The A0 is better left in the rear with an FO around him, keeping the arty in contact. An "in contact" arty park is going to do you more good than any A0 running around risking death for a slightly better chance at a rally.

**** Warning **** the strong opinion expressed above, applies only to battles with C&C off. I make no claims about the A0's usefulness with C&C on.

You stole those words right out of my moutj, with a slight difference. I play that way, particularly having the FO and A0 together, BUT I do use CC. I have another dilemma though: What about what you chose as your FO, since it's so destructible. Actually in comparison, A0 is kind of safe, since the FO's are usualyy one or two men. One man dead and the unit is gone. A0 can probably take at least two deaths before poof.

The FO dilemma for me, is that while a one-two man unit is virtually unspottable, it's also so easily destroyed. If you can place it somewhere so obscure and yet so visually dominating (like that'll ever happen) that nobody would bombard there, then that's optimal, however, I place them in the middle of thick forests and behind hills too, in order to have some hope of those spots being so obscure nobody would bombard them. The only problem I found with the basic strategy of placing A0 by some onboard artillery, is that in SPWW2 the AI will, sooner or later, bombard that artillery spot and so not only are the artillery possibly useless for quite a while, but the A0 might lose a man or two. To lose men on a unit that'll never see experience fighting, even though surviving, is not a good thing whilst campaigning.

There are other alternatives to the basic foot FO, but the solutions aren't much better. You have your AC without top armor, with top armor, and sometimes only have trucks as mobile FO's. The only temptation for me to get a mobile one is if I can find one with a size of two, for I think a size of three, as most of them I've seen are, is too large to put on a hill somewhere. I guess a lot of us are cowardly with them, and don't use them to visually spot anything; but it's sensible cowardice anyway.

One advantage of a top-armored AC as your FO, even if it is a size three or larger, is that at least the chances of artillery hitting it are pretty slim. There is the advantage as well that it has a larger crew than the foot unit, but any destroying hit I've ever seen on most AC's is unlikely to have survivors. Surviving brings up another thing to consider though. What about the survivial rating? Sometimes those AC's can be just as sturdy as tanks, but of course for the lousy armor. One thing I'd make certain of on any mobile FO if you placed it on a hill, just make sure that it isn't on a same hill with ANY armor. I suspect that many of us have given up on the idea of visually spotting with the FO, as it's far too dangerous, and instead use them to filter a lot of our bombardments through to speed up the process. For many of us they're not forward observers, but backward speed dialers.

Yes, using your bombardment, and the fact that the FO has limited orders, when playing CC, makes for some pretty interesting ad-lib arrangements to get maximum bombardments going. I think as things work out for the moment, SPWW2 is the only game with enough artillery drift that your FO, or any spotting whatsoever, could make any sort of difference in accuracy. In SPWAW it's actually too accurate for me. I sure wouldn't want an FO visually spotting for the barrage as that would make things even worse (more accurate).

Irinami · Post by **Irinami** » Mon Sep 08, 2003 8:22 am

My A0 is within visual range of my artillery commanders, near my reserves, but not next to either. He is in the rear, with the gear, because that's what he hauls: gear. His death spells doom. Suppression is but the harbinger of Death, the flutter of that skeletal angel's cloak, and without your A0 you gain suppression regardless of what's going on. Also, I BELIEVE that if 2/3 of your forces are routed and if the enemy controls all the hexes, you lose. Period. You are no longer a threat. So even if you don't lose your A0, if he's suppressed enough, and 2/3 of your other units are too, and the enemy has all the victory hexes... you have no chance of turning the battle around. You're gone.

So yeah. The best description of where I play my A0 is " not the middle of nowhere, but on the near side of nowhere."

Klinkenhoffen · Post by **Klinkenhoffen** » Mon Sep 08, 2003 9:14 am

What protection do you place with the A0? I've started to place machine gun sections with it to discourage any enemy who happen to stumble upon it.

My friend MOTHER has a knack of sniffing out my A0 and then giving them a really bad day. Yes Mother that was my A0 you shot up in those trees. There will be revenge.

klinkenhoffen

Irinami · Post by **Irinami** » Mon Sep 08, 2003 6:38 pm

That's interesting, Klinkenhoffen. I haven't thought of that. Normally I keep my second sniper (if I have a second one) near the A0. On the rare occasions I buy an FO, he's usually near the A0... but between A0 and arty. That lets me double the distance of A0 from arty park, more or less.

But...

A Formation
A0: (Nation) HQ
A1: MG Section
A2: ATR Section

Y0: Sniper

Z0: FO

That might be a very effective rear-area unit. I add the ATR as a primarily to fight off those light armoured vehicles that sometimes get behind your lines. He's inexpensive, and can also act as a tactical marksman in support of the sniper. Also, he's another set of eyes.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...........

AO unit. How close is too close?

AO unit. How close is too close?

In the rear with the gear ...

With C&C ON

AO unit

Ao Unit