Where are the scenarios?

Canuck_jp · Post by **Canuck_jp** » Mon Oct 06, 2003 8:35 pm

Hi there. I just picked up Korsun Pocket this afternoon. I saw it for £20 so I thought I'd better snag it with the option of selling it again if I changed my mind. Well now I'm doing a little investigating to decide whether or not I should break open the seal.
One of the most important things for me is replayability. I'm a little disturbed by the fact that there are only 2 scenarios included with the game. Yes they may be huge and they may be intricate, but no matter how great they are 1+1 still only equals 2. I thought ahh that doesn't matter the game comes with a scenario editor. So I take a look around and I find that, in all the time that this game has been out I can only find TWO user-created scenarios. What is going on here? What good is a scenario editor if no one uses it? Is it the editors fault? Is it too complicated?
One question I have, is whether it can randomly generate maps like say the CM map editor can. If KP had this option where you could basically set up a quick battle then that would do it for me. It doesnt have to be historical, I just want some variation!

Thank you for listening to my questions/rant. If someone can point me toward a bucketfull of scenarios then I'd be greatful.

Canuck_jp · Post by **Canuck_jp** » Mon Oct 06, 2003 9:18 pm

Also I'd like to see a Forum section specifically for scenario design and modding. If games like CM and Halflife have shown anything, it's the games in which modding is fully encouraged that are the ones that last the longest and get the most support from the public.

Pawlock · Post by **Pawlock** » Mon Oct 06, 2003 9:22 pm

Canuck35 wrote:Hi there. I just picked up Korsun Pocket this afternoon. I saw it for £20 so I thought I'd better snag it with the option of selling it again if I changed my mind. Well now I'm doing a little investigating to decide whether or not I should break open the seal.
One of the most important things for me is replayability. I'm a little disturbed by the fact that there are only 2 scenarios included with the game. Yes they may be huge and they may be intricate, but no matter how great they are 1+1 still only equals 2. I thought ahh that doesn't matter the game comes with a scenario editor. So I take a look around and I find that, in all the time that this game has been out I can only find TWO user-created scenarios. What is going on here? What good is a scenario editor if no one uses it? Is it the editors fault? Is it too complicated?
One question I have, is whether it can randomly generate maps like say the CM map editor can. If KP had this option where you could basically set up a quick battle then that would do it for me. It doesnt have to be historical, I just want some variation!

Thank you for listening to my questions/rant. If someone can point me toward a bucketfull of scenarios then I'd be greatful.

Actually, there are more than 2 scenario's if you look. KP and TAO are the grand campaigns, but if you clicked on KP you would have seen more shorter scenarios based on KP.

Secondly, the game has only been released 2 and half months, or less if outside N. america. I havent tried the editor, but its there for those who wish to try and I imagine more people will use it when the present scenario's grow old. You could read the positive into that last statement, by realising nthat many people still havent grown bored of the current selection available. That speaks loads for the replayability of the game I think.

Canuck_jp · Post by **Canuck_jp** » Mon Oct 06, 2003 9:46 pm

Thanks for the reply Pawlock. Like I said I still haven't broken the seal yet so I'm relying on others for information regarding the # of scenarios. What are some of the limits for scenario design? I assume that it has to be based using Eastern front units?

Hertston · Post by **Hertston** » Mon Oct 06, 2003 11:51 pm

Canuck35 wrote:Also I'd like to see a Forum section specifically for scenario design and modding. If games like CM and Halflife have shown anything, it's the games in which modding is fully encouraged that are the ones that last the longest and get the most support from the public.

First, try this site... the definitive fansite for KP and the rest of the series (when there IS a rest of the series

http://run5.wargamer.com

Second, stop farting about and install and play the game. There's more than enough to keep you busy for months even if there never are any user scenarios (there will be).

Third, have patience. It's great there is an editor, but it's not the easiest one in the world to use (especially with no documentation, although there's some help at run5), and even then there's a world of difference between "using" and creating an interesting, historically accurate, balanced and generally well designed scenario. Folks are still finding their feet, I think, but KP isthe sort of game that encourages dedication.. when you get scenarios, they will be GOOD ones.

Fourth, get that shrink wrap off and try the editor yourself. Maybe YOU can come up with something the rest of us will want to play

As far as I can see there is no random map generator.. but for the life of me I can't see why anybody would want one. The game system really isn't suited to "quick battles" of that type IMHO.. you are better off exploring the historical scenarios.

Rob Gjessing · Post by **Rob Gjessing** » Tue Oct 07, 2003 10:33 am

1. There is no Random map generator in the game.
2. There are more then 2 scenarios in the box - if you opened it up you would have realised that

3. Scenario editor support is available from http://run5.wargamer.com as previously mentioned
4. I am mid way through 4 custom scenarios of my own which will be released shortly, be patient please.
5. Chris Merchant has just sent me his completed version of Race to the Meuse which will be released in early Nov.
6. If you are feeling there is a lack of custom scenarios about - then how about doing the right thing and creating some yourself instead of complaining of such

7. Nothing else..

Canuck_jp · Post by **Canuck_jp** » Tue Oct 07, 2003 1:40 pm

Thanks for the replies guys. Believe me I'm not trying to be overly critical. Half of the reason why I haven't opened up the game to 'check for myself' is because I usually find myself easily overwhelmed by these types of games so I'm still not sure if I want to take the plunge, so to speak. I have to make sure first that this game is different from the other operational type games. If I decide not to take the plunge and decide to resell the game, I know it will be worth a lot more if it's still sealed. Another part of why I've yet to check for myself is because I bought the game before I've bought a new computer so I have nothing to play it on

I know for most wargamers, historical scenarios are very important, and are likely the only scenarios that they are apt to play. But to me, historical scenarios mean absolutely squat. Hell, I hardly know which country Korsun is in, nevermind what the terrain looks like or what units the individual forces were comprised of. That's not to say that I wouldnt be delighted to play historical scenarios, but I'd just love to start up a battle against my mate on a map that neither of us have seen before, with forces that are approximately equal and engage in a battle of wits for bragging rights.

I'm interested as to why quick battles are not suited to this type of game. I think they'd be perfectly suitable. I'm not sure how the distribution of units would occur but why could randomly generated maps not be included? I may be completely off here but it seems to me that if you can randomly generate a map in say, Civ 3, surely it cant be that hard to randomly generate a map for a game like KP?

Rob Gjessing · Post by **Rob Gjessing** » Tue Oct 07, 2003 2:06 pm

No there is no random map generator in this series, yes Im sure its possible but it doesnt exist in this game.

But dont be put off by that.. there is alot of replayability in it.. playing a different person via PBEM (where this game really shines) really is like playing a different game.. because each person plays differently, plus, there is the option to turn Fog of War on so that you dont always know where your enemies units are, the weather can be set to Random (this does make a big difference is you get mud thrown at you when you dont expect it - it effectively can grind you assault to a halt.

And then there is the 'Unknown' units setting, which randomising the values for all of your units.,. so that they are not always the same in each game.

In terms of scenarios, I am in the process of converting an older SSG scenario from one of their other games (Panzer Battles) over to this new engine. If it works (and I cant see why it wont.. Im 75% of the way through this one and its playing ok!) - if it works, then it means there is nothing stopping me converting all 60 odd other scenarios that are waiting to be done! Well the only thing stopping me is time..

Someone pay me what I am earning now and I will be happy to convert full time.. but until that happens, and whilst I am one of the few who are doing it.. they are not going to come quickly.. I am hopeful that once I have done this one and people see how effective it is.. they will contact me and start converting them themselves.. I will be able to provide them with the unit and battle data.. they just need to invest the time..

Hertston · Post by **Hertston** » Wed Oct 08, 2003 12:31 am

Canuck35 wrote: Another part of why I've yet to check for myself is because I bought the game before I've bought a new computer so I have nothing to play it on

ROFLMAO !! Yup, that's a pretty good reason, I guess

Canuck35 wrote:I'm interested as to why quick battles are not suited to this type of game. I think they'd be perfectly suitable. I'm not sure how the distribution of units would occur but why could randomly generated maps not be included? I may be completely off here but it seems to me that if you can randomly generate a map in say, Civ 3, surely it cant be that hard to randomly generate a map for a game like KP?

Two issues here. There's no reason why you couldn't do quick battles, I guess. I think my aversion to it is that it would just be such a waste, and you would miss out on an awful lot of what the game is about. The importance of "historical" battles as a factor for enjoying a computer wargame depends pretty much on scale. At the tactical level, it's far less important. Take something like the Squad Battles games, or SP:WaW.. most of the scenarios are "historic", but at that level detail is usually sketchy and to be honest how do you tell, say, one chunk of Vietnamese jungle from another ? At the operational level, though, without the background (and with a scenario essentially no more complicated than "kill more of them than they do you") it just turns into a virtual counter-moving exercise - it would be dull, frankly. Just to add, there's no reason a good scenario shouldn't be hypothetical rather than historical, but to be worth playing it would still need the sort of care in design folks like Rob put in. "Random" just wouldn't work IMHO.

On the map editor, there's probably no reason whatsoever they couldn't code a random generator. But you are (as far as I can recall) the only person who has felt the need for one and with all due respect, it's hard to take your comments too seriously when you havn't even taken the wrapper off yet

Quint · Post by **Quint** » Thu Oct 09, 2003 5:37 am

Jesus Christ, just play the game and quit moaning. If you don't like it/can't stand it/detest it THEN moan.!