Economic Phase and OOB

[fjbn]

Rules say that National Economic Pages and OOB must be public. I mean, everybody has the right to know that I French Corp has 20 Inf 3 Cav real strenght, but the player must guess where the hell is that monster. The reason behind that rule is letting other players know what are you buying and modify their play according these facts. It's just like having spies in other powers which, in fact, was true.

Playing PBEM with a referee is a bit different. Some pleople say that the referee means that OOB and economic pages doesn't need to be public yet, but others say that must be public anyway. Of course, this is not important when you are conforming a PBEM game because rules are voted by the players, but in a PC game it's different, because many rules can't be changed. I would like to know how is implemented these items in MG game, I mean, if Economic pages and OOB will be public or not.

Thanks

[NeverMan]

Um, I must have never read that rule. All the games that I played, builds and reinforcements were always private. Also, you only got to know the strength of the corp when you went into battle with it.

For instance, you might know that Napoleon had control of the I, II, III, IV, I Cav and the Gaurd, but you wouldn't know the actual force amount until you had to fight Nap.

This is the way I always played.

Can you quote the rule that states otherwise?

[shanebosky]

I think fjbn means that the sheet with all the corps' potential maximum strengths is public knowledge. e.g. French 1st corp could potentially have 20i and 3c, and so on, so Austria knows at least that Nap with 1,2,&3 corp could in worst case scenario have x number of inf and y number of cav. This probably should remain public. At least I hope this is what he means. Otherwise you're right, Neverman.

[carnifex]

Can you quote the rule that states otherwise?

I think it is up to you to show rules that say that they should remain hidden.

The ONLY Fog of War in the original EiA game is this:

Which corps each counter represents is shown on the back of the counter and may be examined by only the owning player, except when its identity must be revealed to other players

There is no other Fog. You can see strenghts, expenditures, everything. At any time you can ask Great Britain how many ships they are building this turn, and how much money Russia has left in the bank. Of course you can agree to play however you want to among your friends, but the rules explicitly mention only one Fog of War element. To extrapolate that into hiding anything else is disingenious.

Please note the following rule:

The designation of each fleet (and its movement allowance) is shown on the front of the counter and so its designation and exact strength should always be known to all players.

If, according to you, the National Cards are secret, then how are players supposed to know the exact strength of naval counters?

As a matter of fact, if playing with optional rule 12.1.2 SHIP BUILDING LOCATIONS, you actually have to designate the exact port of arrival, instead of just saying this turn Spain builds 3 ships.

Besides, if expenditures are secret, how the hell am I supposed to know the Turk isn't pulling free infantry out of his ass?

[Titi]

I agree with Carniflex here. In the official EiA rules everything is public except for where is this corps number X?

However i think that the goal is to prevent any cheating. Im my experience, in every game we played, we never show the national card to another player nor the economic one.
We did only reply whenever asked to how many ships are in this fleet, announce ships building and location where they are build and economic manipulation.

That home rule can easily be done with the CEiA but i've no idea if this is really a good way to do it regarding the effect on the simulation.

However, i've another question on the same subject, when asked to choose a corps for loan, or removing three or half of your corps, how are they selected? By giving the number as their strengths are supposed public, randomly or choosen on the map (guessing or with memeories of previous engagement)? In EiA and CEiA?

[NeverMan]

ORIGINAL: carnifex

Which corps each counter represents is shown on the back of the counter and may be examined by ONLY the owning player, except when its identity must be revealed to other players

There is no other Fog. You can see strenghts, expenditures, everything. At any time you can ask Great Britain how many ships they are building this turn, and how much money Russia has left in the bank. Of course you can agree to play however you want to among your friends, but the rules explicitly mention only one Fog of War element. To extrapolate that into hiding anything else is disingenious.

Yes, the sheets are public knowledge, obviously. However, strengths are not. I will find the rule for you as soon as I get a chance and prove it to you. It may take a couple of days, as I am very busy at the moment.

EDIT: Ships, in EiA, are dealt with quite differently than are land corps. Very different. If I remember correctly, and I will try to find the rule for this one as well, ships being built must be announced when they are built, how many, and where, and yes ship factors ARE public knowledge.

[fjbn]

Well, if you probe what you're saying I will be very glad[&o]. I introduced this thread because there has been a controversy in one game where I´m the referee. Some people more experienced than I say that all information must be public except where are the corps, but after introducing the thread I have only found two places where rules say clearly that must be public: fleet strenght and manipulation. Other rules doesn't clarify if all is public or not. I must admit, I'm really lost.[&:]

[carnifex]

However, i've another question on the same subject, when asked to choose a corps for loan, or removing three or half of your corps, how are they selected? By giving the number as their strengths are supposed public, randomly or choosen on the map (guessing or with memeories of previous engagement)? In EiA and CEiA?

I can't believe no one bothered to scan the Victory Conditions card anywhere on the web Mine is at home at the moment, but if memory serves me correct, corps on loan is an informed choice, except iirc some corps types are ineligible, like guards and artillery and maybe feudal, not sure, but anyway the process of choosing corps on loan is not random or hidden.

As for the removal, I believe that choice is random and the victorious player just picks out several corps out of all available, and I think also some types of corps are ineligible. I remember that when a player felt someone was going to take half his army they would purchase all the empty corps counters they could and fill them with 1 factor and hope they diluted the removal to come.

Not sure, maybe someone with access to the card can post for sure or I will check when I get home.

[carnifex]

Other rules doesn't clarify if all is public or not

They don't really need to specify what is public, only what is hidden imho. There is only one place in the rules that specifically mention Fog of War, which is the composition of corps counters on the map. Since they went out of their way to mention this, you can be assured that if anything else was private it would be specifically mentioned as well.

If you look at section 2.0 which deals with setup, the rules tell you to get a big table to fit the whole map and all the national cards and all the other stuff. Then they say to use garrison markers to mark corps strengths. Now, how are you going to have that hidden when the cards are right there for all to see and your strength markers are also there? It doesn't say keep them upside down, or they can't be inspected, or to put a sheet of paper over them or to growl menacingly when someone gets to close and starts looking. It says put the counters on the cards. For fleet counters, which are on the same card, it specifically tells you that you can match up the fleet counter with the National Card. It doesn't say keep half the card hidden. For economic expenditures and all other money matters, it tells you write it down. It doesn't say keep it secret. It doesn't say keep it private. People might want to assume that, which is fine, but again, it's not in the rules.

Rules Here

[fjbn]

I don't think so. Rules say when you have to make public some information. You say that public is the general rule. Well, it's your opinion, but I don't see that base in any rule. This is a war game, and secret is part of war. You don´t have to let any clue to your enemies and even your today's allies, because they'll probably be your next enemies. As a Liverpool coach said in the sixties: "If I could, I would only say that there is a match here, not more".

Both opinions (secret or public) are more in what people think is the esence of the game that in rules themselves.

[Mark Breed]

The rules only infer that the National Card information is public. Here are the rules:

Rule 2.3 states: "... any table selected should be large enough not only to hold the maps but also to provide room for the various cards to be placed near and around the maps."

"2.4.2 USING THE NATIONAL CARDS: The maximum strengths of corps and fleets are shown on the appropriate National Cards (one card per major power, and one for all of the minor countries). The corps and fleet counters when face-up on the map only show their general type and movement allowance. Which corps each counter represents is shown on the back of the counter and may be examined by only the players (e.g., during a combat - see 7.5.2.6.3). The designation of each fleet (and its movement allowance) is shown on the front of the counter and so its designation and exact strength should always be known to all players."

In the group that I play with, we prefer to increase the fog of war keeping the cards hidden and only reveal the strength of the fleets based on the "should" comment. In fact, we keep the oob sheets in our own clip boards or notebooks using pencils and erasers to track the strengths.

Regards,
Mark

[carnifex]

You say that public is the general rule. Well, it's your opinion, but I don't see that base in any rule. This is a war game, and secret is part of war.

Yeah, well, lol, your 'secret is a part of war' statement is purely your own opinion too, and I don't see you providing any examples or logic to back that up.

And public is the general rule for every single boardgame ever designed, whether a wargame or a wordgame. Unless the rules specifically say something is hidden, then it's not. That is why games provide "Hidden" markers, and that is why games provide screens or trays or other devices to hide information.

I agree that the original EiA rules are very vague in some places, but this particular topic has already been debated to death on the EiA mailing list and the consensus was that the National Cards are public knowledge. It was also said that many people prefer to keep them secret. Hey, like I said I don't care, play the game however you want to, and if you have implicit trust in all the other six players because they're your best buddies and you know they would never give themselves an extra ten infantry points well that's great. I don't have six reliable trustworthy people to devote ten weeks of life for an EiA session, so there's usually one or two people who we or I don't know very well. So it's all out there, just so there's no griping or suspicion later.

[yammahoper]

Most of our games, we were all freinds and we still announced everything. We even went so far as to declare purchases in the eco phases and our record keeper would announce troop arrival every reinforcement phase. It worked great for us.

During play, I was know to keep a list of known corp strength of various nations. That was very helpful.

[carnifex]

ok, finally got home

B4. (Corps on Loan) The victor has an informed choice of corps, but Guard, Grenadier, Artillery or Cavalry corps may not be selected.

That's simple.

Now, for the removal of corps, with Conditional: Must remove 3 corps or half(round up) of the corps currently on map, whichever is lesser. Choice is random, but cannot include Guard and Grenadier.

With Unconditional, it's 3 corps or half (round down) the on-map corps, whichever is greater. The choice is random. The Unconditional removal does not list any restrictions, meaning that Guard and Grenadier corps are not exempt.

[NeverMan]

How does making everything public even make sense?? Each eco buy is public knowledge to all of Europe? That's just stupid.

When you play poker, do you make sure the table is big enough to fit your cards on it? Then do you show your cards to every one at the table?

OK, my apologies if I have offended anyone. This is an idiotic conversation that I am done with. Call me the loser to make carnifex happy.

[pfnognoff]

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

Call me the loser to make carnifex happy.

Is your surrender conditional or unconditional? [:D][:D]

I guess it was only a matter of time before this "gray area" of EiA rules will raise the spirits arround here...

My EiA group considered this "public Eco phase/Corps strength" issue to be clear but stupid rule, so we kept them secret unless specifically requested by somebody. We did this because even if we are all good friends, we play to win, and if you think there is cheating going on you should be able to check your suspisions to calm things down. Usually it was enough to make everyone happy. This issue is not important enough to loose sleep over, especially since now with computer EiA there will be no room for cheating...

[fjbn]

You are right, there will no room for cheating or mistakes, but in fact it's important to make clear what you brightly call "the grey area" of EiA rules, because I think we all agree that MG rules will be in the end the standards in EiA, no matter if you play via PC, Cyberboard or other ways.

[carnifex]

Call me the loser to make carnifex happy.

I'm willing to go informal for minor future considerations

It's not that important - anyway as people mentioned all these gray areas will go away in the computer version since you won't be able to to argue rule interpretations with the program. Whatver side Matrix comes down on is the way it will go.

[Murat]

Well we were not really concerned over cheating, just mathmatical error. Purchases were really not so much of a problem as morale calculation for battles where a .1 either way could often make the difference between victory and defeat. We even had one of those math savants where you could call out how much of each unit you had and he would tell you your correct morale faster than you could put it in the calculator. He was right WAY more than wrong but I checked every time just because sometimes he would get the wrong .1 in his head.

The idea of truly "secret" corps strength is hard in practice anyway since you can "scout" a stack, know it's strength and tell all your allies (while only the 2 combatants can LOOK they still have voices). I like the idea of some fog of war, one could never be absolutely positive about what they were facing, but within a cavalry zone (the area cavalry could move in 1 phase) a player should have a pretty good idea of what is there. Secret builds will not be an issue since noone can cheat their builds anymore, so I would rather they be secret than not (even naval builds - this rule always struck me as odd, why would it be easier to know every single ship that an opponent is building in every single port than to know what corps is that 2 movement away from your army? o_O ). As for corps strengths, finding out during battle is fine with me, you can always see how MANY corps are there and their type and guess the worst. Once there is conflict you have a pretty good idea of what the riposte will be.

[pfnognoff]

ORIGINAL: Murat

Secret builds will not be an issue since noone can cheat their builds anymore, so I would rather they be secret than not (even naval builds - this rule always struck me as odd, why would it be easier to know every single ship that an opponent is building in every single port than to know what corps is that 2 movement away from your army?

My guess as to why the eco phase builds and shipbuilding locations are not secret in the original is that spies should have easier time at their job in urban areas as opposed to open country or forests where the armies moved. Also, building ships and weapons and training troopers and crews takes long time and is usually confined to a certain area, but these are just my wild guesses, the only real answer to this can be given by EiA designers. I'm really hoping MG did go through enough of EiA rules gray areas in cooperation with the designers to give us clear interpretation in the computer version.