What SPWaW Is, and What it Isn't:your thoughts wanted

[KG Erwin]

After several years of playing this now venerable game, I want to get opinions on what this game really is, and also what it isn't.

My personal opinion:

What the game is-- the engine is dated (it originated as a DOS game), but this freely-issued Matrix game is a fantastic introduction to the complexities of tactical combined-arms combat in the WWII era. With this, you get a basic understanding of the capabilities of WWII weapons, in many cases a text describing their history, and a demonstration of how they were employed and performed in combat. Some background in military history is helpful, but not essential. It is entertainment, and it is education.

What it isn't--this a turn-based game, so the flow of actual tactical combat is very abstracted. This is NOT a simulation, as currently defined by the US Military, which deals in real-time gaming. You don't see dead soldiers, a la Close Combat, and seldom do you hear human voices, except as incidentals to the firing of weapons. This definitely isn't a first-person shooter arcade game, with Rambo-types shooting up the bad guys as fast as you can click.

This is my personal take on the value of SPWaW. As a personal addendum, I still think this is the best WWII tactical wargame that ever existed, bar none. It's possibilities are still being explored.

So, what do you guys think?

[Gallo Rojo]

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin
So, what do you guys think?

I think that Matrix should release Combat Leader soon [8|]

[RayM]

After playing military board and computer games at the operational and strategic levels and ignoring the squad/platoon/company games, for many years, SPWaW was the first serious game that got me interested in playing at the lower levels.

Having played it for some time now, I find it one of my favorite games that I come back to time after time. Add to this the fact that it had a bunch of Pacific theater scenarios and well as one or two small and large campaigns and a Mega Campaign to boot and well... I just had to plunge right in. I'm glad I did.

Augmenting the actual game is the helpful SPWaW community as manifested in the forums. Very helpful.

Overall, a very good value.

[KG Erwin]

Gallo Rojo, I agree with you, to a point. Combat Leader is promised to be the next generation of tactical WWII games. It hasn't been released yet. However, the CL forum is open for comments.

As for SPWaW, what specifically are your complaints?

[KG Erwin]

ORIGINAL: RayM

After playing military board and computer games at the operational and strategic levels and ignoring the squad/platoon/company games, for many years, SPWaW was the first serious game that got me interested in playing at the lower levels.

Having played it for some time now, I find it one of my favorite games that I come back to time after time. Add to this the fact that it had a bunch of Pacific theater scenarios and well as one or two small and large campaigns and a Mega Campaign to boot and well... I just had to plunge right in. I'm glad I did.

Augmenting the actual game is the helpful SPWaW community as manifested in the forums. Very helpful.

Overall, a very good value.

Ray, I absolutely agree. I have the old AH tactical boardgames Panzerblitz and the Arab-Israeli Wars, but this game brings it to me, up close and personal, even if it's a dumbed-down version of HAL (from 2001: A Space Odyssey) playing against me. Yeah, I'm usually going to beat him, but once in a while, he can offer up a tough fight.

The best AI challenges are offered in scenarios and Mega-campaigns. The MCs are all tough, with emphasis on "Screaming Eagles". All of the previous expertise in designing MCs led to this one: it is the best overall MC package yet to be offered.

You're a Pacific fan, Ray, so I'd recommend giving the MC "Watchtower" a try.

[David Heath]

ORIGINAL: Gallo Rojo

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin
So, what do you guys think?

I think that Matrix should release Combat Leader soon [8|]

Just so you know Matrix sent the Combat Leader team out to Colordo Springs for a week long Combat Leader developer meeting. Both Tom Proudfoot and Paul Vebber are there working away. Bryan Melvin also spent some time with the guys working over game code and OOB.

I know we been going slow but we feel it will be worth it.

David Heath

[Muzrub]

The longer you take the longer you'll have to wait for the cash!

[steveh11Matrix]

I think SPWaW is the best WW2 tactical game I have ever played. What's more it keeps getting better.

I play for a while, eventually find something else of interest, then come back...to find YAU (Yet Another Update)!

I love playing long Generated Campaigns, typically setting to 200 battles - roughly 3 per month for duration of the war. It allows me a role-play element as well as some tactical fun.

I haven't played any of the "real-time" games, nor am I ever likely to unless they are pausable in the same manner as Paradox's offerings. Goes completely against my style of play. I also never play PBEM, preferring FTF using real figures or counters, or simply against the ai. (If I'm going to play against a nother person, I find the social element - chatting, having non-game-related fun - to be very important.) So a half-decent ai would be nice - but seeing as how I normally play vs Soviets I can rationalise the naive ai behaviour, and simply beef up the opponents' strength.

I have played with a Mega Campaign (Desert Fox) but frankly, it's not 'where I'm at'. Same with the pregenerated scenarios or campaigns. Whatever follows on from SPWaW I hope to goodness that it allows the same kind of campaign.

Just a few random neurons firing! [:)]

Steve.

[Wuotan]

My two pence:

It´s a wonderful playground. I see it as a film where i am the main-actor[8D], director
and (partually) the script-writer. "Colonel Wuotan sees the enemy tanks burning, and
a harsh smile covers his face[;)]"... good entertainement. And enough reality to fear
the JS-IIMs storming my lines (and no APCR-Ammunition anymore[X(]. ). "Simulation"?
Hmmm... i have never been playing with the editors/changing slope, weapons and so
on. I am going to the battlefield and see how i can do my best. That´s all i want.

Greetings!

[Hexed Gamer]

Steel Panthers is Squad Leader for the computer plain and simple.

Being that I was there when Squad Leader was first released, and being that I am still with ASL and have been there at all time in between I am both an expert on that matter as well as properly informed.

Steel Panthers is a game where the user views the battle from the directly above it. It is a game of individual vehicle units that do not move till you move them. It is a game of squads crews and support assets working toegther. It uses a detailed map that looks just like the actual terrain if viewed from vertically above it.
It models the ability for enemy units to respond to your movement when preset conditions are met. It allows your units to do the same. It allows for limited fog of war in that you can't view what your units couldn't see.

Steel Panthers is a colourful animated version of Squad Leader, in that the units make sounds rather than force the user to artificially do it themselves The Units move much as a Squad Leader unit would move in that they conform to hex grids that superimpose a regulated movement.

If Steel Panthers (original SSI release) is anything, it is akin to original release Squad Leader, where as the Matrix Games release is akin to Advanced Squad Leader and a Mega Campaign would be an ASL Historical Module.

The releases from SP Camo make a decent approximation to the third party creations of ASL, as sometimes they are better, sometimes not fully as deluxe.

What Steel Panthers isn't is a tank sim as it is not you actually controlling the actual movement of a tank in hyper realistic action. For a tank sim I suggest you get a tank sim.
Steel Panthers is not a 3d game WEGO or otherwise.

SL/ASL was not 3d either, thus misleading quotes to the effect, that well known games such as Combat Mission or Sudden Strike or Close Combat or Squad Assault being like SL/ASL for computer miss the obvious.
SL/ASL was a turn using complex interleave turn using process set on a 2d board with units that moved individually.

So, if you are one of those that think those four games is closer, you are clearly mistaken.

It is possible to "emulate" to a degree Squad Leader, but only Steel Panthers comes close enough that the notion of making SL/ASL a computer game, is clearly a long difficult and entirely horrible waste of developer resources.
After all, the Up Front card using game was "modelled on" Squad Leader, but only a completely blind person could see it is o nly a close association.

Steel Panthers is a veteran game that has shown it can remain survive and actually outlast games that are only passing fads.
Much in the same way, that SL/ASL has proved even a high cost will not deter people from continuing to lay out massive sums of cash for a design more than 2 decades old as we speak.

There will be games claiming to look like Steel Panthers, and likely very few that will be half as good.

Regardless of the software's age, and capacity to annoy users with new modern powerful systems, it still manages to force us to find even while frustrating, work arounds fixes and solutions to play it.

I have seen many a game with impressive graphics promising incredible effects and detailed simulation come and almost immediately go all while Steel Panthers remains.

Steel Panthers, one of the singularly greatest wargaming achievements for the computer ever produced.

And amazingly, it is free!

[FNG]

It is the most addictive game I have ever played. I play all sorts, strategy, FPS, console, etc. I have a 1970 edition of PanzerBlitz and a 1972 edition of Panzer Leader. Whatever else comes along, I always end up back playing SP. Whatever its flaws and limitations, it is the only WWII tactical wargame worth playing. I would hate to know just how many hours I have spent playing this series right from SP1 through to the present. As has been mentioned, the fact that it is free is remarkable. Thanks Matrix - I shall be saying 'thanks' with my cash when CL comes out.

[vulkansanex]

SPWAW is also free from commercial publisher influences, an evil that has made games geared towards being content-free - tech demos with no gameplay flavour.

Publishers shun from games being to hard and even having any kind of learning curve. The game has to please everybody and make up for its production by sales within a month or two. This is of course impossible and insane and has led to the shelves overflowing with licenced games - the kind of games that will sell no matter the content - as only short time sales count.

SPWAW is free from all of the above and is powered by people who believes in the game and what it is for the sake of the game and its players. - Long live SPWAW!

[Hexed Gamer]

Well to be honest, Steel Panthers, back when there was just Steel Panthers, and no numbers behind the name or additional phrases, had to spend it's own day on the shelf.

But it was also ahead of the pack, it got there first in more ways than one.

Sure there were other good tank games. Wargame Construction Set II Tanks is a good example of a game made well (and it still runs on an XP using computer by the way).

But today, it seems a game won't sell in the absence of 3d and real time and wooooooooonderful graphics tech that ensures the user must absolutely upgrade their system.

I have played a lot of these spendiferous pretty creations that have come out in the interval since Steel Panthers arrived.
Yeah they look neat.
But hmm just as a well stack perfectly proportioned beach bunny would likely make for one heck of a roll in the hay, that is about all you can ask for too.
And some are happy with a shallow skin deep entirely no brainer game.

Steel Panthers has its faults to be sure, but it also is still a great game all the same. And I expect it will still be the yardstick long after all the beach bunnies have lost their shine (for anyone looking for substance).

[Hexed Gamer]

Steel Panthers, a wargamers wargame.

Most of the real time 3d and or flashy graphics games are only good if you don't actually WANT a great wargamers wargame.

And just as you can sell Playboy faster and easier to more, than a good issue of National Geographic, Steel Panthers as with all solid wargames will always appeal more to serious wargamers

And the solid reality of the matter is, serious wargamers are less numerous by demographic.
Not surprising when so many publishers will turn out what they turn out, when the point of business is more often about the money, than about anything else.
Can't fault a software producer for understanding simple basics of business to some extent.

But we wargamers get to be the ones that label the producers as being creators of serious wargames or not

[Lionfish]

Steel Panthers to me is a great game as in Chess is a great game. What makes them both great games is not the graphics, peices, flashy marketing, or hype - but SOLID GAME PLAY.

Steel Panthers will always be around in some form or fashion because it HAS BECOME the Chess game for PC Tactical Wargames.

The rules have be tried and tested. End of story.

In the future we may see new Steel Panther releases, with new sounds and graphics and maybe even 3d - BUT IT MUST MAINTAIN THE RULES to stay true to it's course. If it does that then it will be here a long, long time.

Every year 3 or 4 chess games come out, yet the rules don't change. They still sell, because it has become a standard, an expectation, a certainty.

I have a sneaky suspision that Combat Leader will be a good and maybe even great game, but I think many will come back to the tried and tested Steel Panthers. Why, because the game play meets with all our expectations. It has become a staple, not just another game.

It is no longer just a game, but core set of rules for Tactical PC Wargaming. It will be mimiced, but I doubt it will be replaced.

You know a game is good, when it's been installed on 3 generations of computers. Damn, I can't say that about any other game.

Thanks to Matrix.

BTW - even though it is Free, I am still buying the General Edition as a donation to Matrix for continuing support of the best tactical pc game.

The should setup a paypal donation for any amount. I think we would all contribute, whether a $1 or $100. If you added up all the money I have dropped on games vs. gameplay hours, I have atleast $500 of game play hours in SP, probably double that.

Thanks again Matrix.

[Hexed Gamer]

I normally don't support fauning indulgences of companies regardless of which company.

But I would have to assume Matrix Games might be the inevitable exception to the rule.

David, Lionfish might have a good idea eh, ever seriously thought of setting up a donation option?

I know there are risks, the first that comes to mind being how looking like you are begging for money sends an adverse signal that you are not actually doing well.
But I think no one is going to fault you if you try to let all us appreciative Steel Panthers devotees give a little back to you for all the years you have given to us.

I already have all of what is havable. And even with my dreadful level of income, I could still likely find a few bucks.

[Gallo Rojo]

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin
As for SPWaW, what specifically are your complaints?

Broadly speaking, there’re nowadays three Steel Panthers versions:

- SPWaW.8
- SPH2H (actually a mode of SPWaW)
- SPWW2v7 (the SPCammo version).

In past times SPWaW was better than SPWW2, but nowadays SPWaW is the worst Steel Panthers version available (this is my personal opinion of course, but it is not only mine: a lot of wargamers think this way)

SPH2H.fr had already outclassed Matrix official’s SPWaWv7.* version and I don’t see how the newest v8.2 has moved a step forward to H2H.fr. Finally, SPWW2v7 plays much better than both H2H and WaW – but has that step back of being a DOS game.

The only really interesting improvement in v8 was the mod-swapper and its interest relies in that a player can swap to another mode (what I can interpret as a good way of… getting out of v8!)
New graphics are nice but they don’t make a good game. And even in graphics, v8 haven’t incorporated winter camouflage icons – a feature that is present in SPH2H since long, and that was incorporated in SPWW2 since v7 (even more: SPWW2v7 units have summer, winter AND dessert cammo, and the unit’s color is automatically defined by the game). The other “improvement” in v8 was the new OOB, but again that’s only another OOB set. Some notorious old times bugs and faults were not fixed.

One of the main reasons for all of the above may be that SPCammo’s design team is still interested and working on its game. Matrix team, on the other hand, have decided to not work anymore in SPWaW but develop an entirely new tactical turn-based game (Combat Leader). That’s potentially an excellent idea. Hence my comment about that Matrix games should release it soon.

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin
Combat Leader is promised to be the next generation of tactical WWII games. It hasn't been released yet. However, the CL forum is open for comments.

Given the fact that I’m not happy with the development SPWaW had in its final versions, I become to doubt that I will like CL… but since nor the game neither a demo have been released yet I can’t know it by sure.

I know that there's a CL Forum, but any time me or somebody else comes with a specific question about certain topics or ask about if a demo version will be released, the answer goes like this: “If you like SPWaW, you’ll like CL;” period.

So I’m trapped in here: I can either discuss generalities about how CL will be, or I can wait until it was released to discuss specific topics.

So, I would love to see the game (or better, a demo version) released so I can discuss the game in a solid ground.

best,
Gallo Rojo

[dunham]

Agreed, it is the best tactical simulation.

It is a true descendant of Kampfgruppe, which was the best tactical simulation on the C64. Anyway, being the best doesn't mean it can't be improved
Here's my wish list:

1a Less OpFire (easy solution) - there should be a limit independent of checks. There is a physical limit to how many rounds can be reloaded within a minute.
or
1b Simultaneous actions (complex solution) - allow several units to be moved at once. The hidden AT gun will find it difficult to deal with five tanks advancing on it at once
or
1c Split turns into move planning and execution (change of the game) - as it was in Kampfgruppe. This would slow down the game even more, but give the simulation more realism. You commit your units to what they'll do in the next (say) minute and have to live with the consequences.

2 Eye candy. I don't know if there is a game engine available that could be converted to a hex and turn based game, but graphics like in Close Combat or Silent Storm would be highly appreciated.

3 Refunds for upgraded units. Please give me at least a fraction of the upgraded unit's value back when I buy a new one. Reduce the total points available in a campaign to balance this.

That's all - you're that close to perfect

Kai

[CatLord]

As for SPWaW, what specifically are your complaints?

1 - Clunky interface (right click, anyone ?), especially for the editor.
2 - Some funny limits that should disappear in CL (like all those 255-max values)
3 - AI
4 - AI
5 - AI
6 - Did I tell you about the AI ?
7 - I hate RT game. other than IGoUGo it must be, either pausable (a la Paradox), or simultaneous planning/resolution phases.

Other than that, it's still the best land ww2 wargame I play.

Cat

[Hexed Gamer]

Good points dunham. Maybe most will be realised in CL.

We can only hope.

We can only hope CL will ever show

Steel Panthers is largely a done deal save for tweaking endlessly the unit values. But chances are the games not going to see evolutionary change beyond unit stat tweaks.

CatLord, yeah the AI in Battle mode is sure dumb. Scenarios are better, Mega Campaigns more challenging.
The game really shines vs humans, but the DYO aspect is near impossible without a large legal text looking sum of custom house rules.
Nope can't buy that, nope can't buy more than 2 of that.

Oh if Steel Panthers was only WEGO, that would be awesome.