Can Engineers built pontoons bridges?

Gallo Rojo · Post by **Gallo Rojo** » Mon May 28, 2001 10:15 pm

...So Tanks cross rivers over them...

Peregrine Falcon · Post by **Peregrine Falcon** » Mon May 28, 2001 10:19 pm

Originally posted by Gallo Rojo:
...So Tanks cross rivers over them...

Sadly, they can't. I like using engineers as part of my forces, but currently their activity is limited only to warfare.

Brigde-laying tanks would be nice too, but I dont think SPWAW code can stretch that far

And a word about bridges...Where are STEEL bridges?? I dont think many LARGE bridges during WWII were constructed from stone/wood..... :rolleyes:

[ May 28, 2001: Message edited by: Peregrine Falcon ]

Gallo Rojo · Post by **Gallo Rojo** » Mon May 28, 2001 11:01 pm

So the only way to river crossing tanks is to load them on barges...
That’s sad...

River crossing would gain a lot of flavor using pontoon bridges, Bridge-laying-tanks and other stuff like this.

Belisarius · Post by **Belisarius** » Tue May 29, 2001 1:04 am

Correct me if I'm wrong, but since SPWAW is a wargame I don't see the need for bridge-laying tanks. If you have to cross a river in a combat situation, you don't wait for the engineers carrying pontoon bridges. (They're not at the front line, exactly..)

You cross, and after you established a bridgehead you build pontoon bridges to facilitate transport of reinforcements and supplies.

Still, a pontoon bridge graphic would be nice to have in the map editor to add depth.

Gallo Rojo · Post by **Gallo Rojo** » Tue May 29, 2001 2:16 am

Your point is basically right, Belisarius.

But you can see that there are a lot of units and weapons in SPWaW that are not very tactical issues.
Examples:
Level Bombers
Paratroopers (?)
Specifically for river crossing you have Barge Carriers

So think on have pontoon bridges is not so different than have this other things.

There are a number of big scenarios (very large maps and more than 40 turns –see “north of psel” or “the steel shield&#8221

on which pontoon bridges could be useful.

Personally I don’t like to much big scenarios, but everything that gives more versatility to the game is welcomed in my opinion.
Pontoon bridges could be nice on a large scenario where you have to established a bridgehead on the first turns, and then you have to reinforce it and cross a big armored that will come as a reinforce to take forward objetives.

I’m planing a 1940 French Campaign, based on Guderian’s the 1st PzDiv. And I like to do a big scenario about the Meuse crossing. That’s why I asked.

Gallo Rojo · Post by **Gallo Rojo** » Tue May 29, 2001 2:18 am

I don’t know why this

had apeared on my previous post.
Ignore it please.

Banjo · Post by **Banjo** » Tue May 29, 2001 7:48 am

I think the max number of turns for a scenario is 60, without looking in the manual. The lenght of a turn is ABOUT 5 minutes in real time, giving you a 3 to 4 hour max length scenario. In that time frame would it be possible to establish a beachead and have enough time to bring up the equipment to build a pontoon bridge? I don't remember how wide the river was where Guderian crossed it or how long it took his engineers to put a bridge together, but it seems like it would take a bit of doing especially in the water under fire. I have done construction in the water up to my neck building docks and bulkheads it's not easy. one round taken by an inflatable raft would create a lot of problems. The campaign sounds great, Having the capabilities to build the bridge would be challenging and fun. Hopefully, it is something to look forward to when the codewriters cpme up with a better game engine. That is just a matter of time!!!

Colonel von Blitz · Post by **Colonel von Blitz** » Tue May 29, 2001 9:59 am

Originally posted by Banjo:
ABOUT 5 minutes in real time, giving you a 3 to 4 hour max length scenario.

If you calculate again, you'll see that one turn is exactly ONE minute in real time.

Move a unit and you'll see that speed of units does not increase "logically"...first hex 2 mph, second hex 3 mph, third hex 5 mph and so on. One can find the "true" speed of a unit using some math

I got ~1.7 mph when moving one hex (sorry, I do not have my exact results at hand).

Now we know that when unit moves 50 yards or 45.72 meters, the speed is ~1.7 mph or ~2.74 km/h. So, we know speed and distance, thus it's very easy to calculate the time it takes to travel that distance at that speed.

t = s / v = 45.72m / 2.74 km/h = 45.72m / 0.76m/s = 60.06 sec!!!

Colonel von Blitz

[ May 29, 2001: Message edited by: Colonel von Blitz ]

Randy · Post by **Randy** » Tue May 29, 2001 10:32 am

Isn't this being covered in SPMW? I think I read somewhere they are going to have AVLBs. In the old game Perfect General, the engineers could build bridges. You would click on them to build the bridge, and on the next turn the bridge would appear.
Semper Fi
Randy

Belisarius · Post by **Belisarius** » Tue May 29, 2001 9:18 pm

Does anyone have knowledge about construction times for bridges? I have not, so I spent a few minutes to look for it on the web, but it's not that easy to find if you don't know where to look. Anyway, I found a site about the U.S. 150th combat engineer bt. with lots of pictures and story abt the Bailey Bridge, but not much raw data.
It seems that pontoon and dry bridges took the better part of a day (and under enemy fire - several days) to construct.

If I don't remember it wrong, wasn't folding bridges in use during WWII? Those are put in place much faster, but have limited spans. (about 20 m)

kao16 · Post by **kao16** » Wed May 30, 2001 5:16 am

Among the "funnies" in service with the UK forces at D-day were (IIRC):

1) Arks (older Churchill hull with turret removed and fore and aft ramps). The tank drove into the area to be bridged (or as far up the wall/ obstacle as they could go) then dropped the ramps.

2) ARVE - with bridge section (Churcill with Petard mortar carrying a single bridge section hinged fron the front and held up with cables) that could lay the bridge section - not sure about the ease of bridge recovery.

3) Folding bridges - don't know if they actually saw service, but I have seen a picture of a tank (Valentine or Sherman laying a folding bridge).

Banjo · Post by **Banjo** » Wed May 30, 2001 6:26 am

Colonel, the time length per turn I got from the manual, which lists the turn at several minutes. Your MPH distance calculations interest me though. I will have to check it out next time I play. I think that the speed numbers may be a bit tricky since I think that there are so many details that can't be modeled into the game, that exact speeds in relation to terrain in a hex can't be one of them. For instance, if you have an open terrain grass hex. If you were to walk across it, it would take x number of seconds. If there were a 20 foot wide mudhole that you had to walk across it would be too small to add as a terrain feature since a few feet away, it could be dry. One path would take longer to walk across the same hex the same distance. There could be a few bushes in the way that you would have to walk around, but not large enough to take up even 10% of the hex.

But, using your point of speed vs distance travelled to come up with time is a good point though. I have just begun to experinment with Fred's map editor. It seems as if he has created some very useful tools for working with the finer working details of this game. I will definately be keeping your thought in mind in the near future. Thanks for your observations.

Colonel von Blitz · Post by **Colonel von Blitz** » Wed May 30, 2001 10:07 am

Colonel, the time length per turn I got from the manual, which lists the turn at several minutes.

I believe a turn is listed at several minutes because the SPWAW IIRC is based on SP III. But SPWAW is back at "original" Steel Panthers scale, but for some reason the time one turn represents is still kept same in the manual

Your MPH distance calculations interest me though. I will have to check it out next time I play. I think that the speed numbers may be a bit tricky since I think that there are so many details that can't be modeled into the game, that exact speeds in relation to terrain in a hex can't be one of them. For instance, if you have an open terrain grass hex. If you were to walk across it, it would take x number of seconds. If there were a 20 foot wide mudhole that you had to walk across it would be too small to add as a terrain feature since a few feet away, it could be dry. One path would take longer to walk across the same hex the same distance. There could be a few bushes in the way that you would have to walk around, but not large enough to take up even 10% of the hex.

I think that indicated speed is average speed of a unit travelling through hexes. It does not take into account little bumps or holes in the terrain or one of the infantrymen dropping his weapon and picking it up etc.

But, using your point of speed vs distance travelled to come up with time is a good point though.

Thanks, actually it was quite fun to calculate that...the real time that turn represents, it had bothered me quite a ling time. I decided to find out

Colonel von Blitz

[ May 30, 2001: Message edited by: Colonel von Blitz ]

Voriax · Post by **Voriax** » Wed May 30, 2001 12:36 pm

Ah, but if the unit does not move but instead fires all it's shots...say 4 shots...then the turn length for it would be 10-15 seconds.

Sorry Blitz, but rather pointless calculation imho. :rolleyes:

Voriax

murx · Post by **murx** » Wed May 30, 2001 5:07 pm

The game handles rivers/streams a bit too easy ... no matter if you have bridge layers or not. In Europe lots of rivers are 'cultivated' meaning they aren't to broad but deep with steep banks.
I examined like 10 different rivers in my countryside at many different locations and probably at only 5% of the river/streams a tank could drive into AND out of the river.
The tank would probably either got stuck entering the river because its too steep down or when trying to leave the river/stream. Wheeled units have like no chance crossing a river/stream without a proper crossing or bridge. Some scout tanks like the 8wheel recon have a higher chance crossing rivers/streams.
To have an idea how broad those rivers/streams are I'm talking of : they are ususal between 6-14m broad and about 1.20-1.80m water depth, the river bank adds another 1.20-2.00 m height to cross for the tank.
Nearly any European river that is broader then 40m (or one hex) is impassable for tanks (with the exception of 'Tauchpanzer' or tanks using the 'Tauchschacht' - a special equipment).
Resumee: So if it is nearly impossible for modern tanks to cross rivers/streams in Europe WWII tanks should have at least a 95% chance of immobilize/abandon !!!

If this would be properly displayed in SPWAW Bridges would get the tactical importance they really (REALLY !) have and add more depth as advancing routes to victory locations would be a limited and proper tactics for delay/defend (either as a mission or local within a mission) would apply.

murx

[ May 30, 2001: Message edited by: murx ]

Warhorse · Post by **Warhorse** » Wed May 30, 2001 5:18 pm

OK fellahs, there IS a pontoon bridge graphic!!!!!! I made this awhile ago, and it resides in the same shp file as the other bridges, and roads

You can only use it with Fred's mapedit program, but it IS there, have fun!!

TheZel66 · Post by **TheZel66** » Wed May 30, 2001 5:29 pm

Originally posted by murx:
...In Europe lots of rivers are 'cultivated' meaning they aren't to broad but deep with steep banks....

[ May 30, 2001: Message edited by: murx ]

Doesn't SPWAW reflect these types of streams with canals?? version 5.0

Gallo Rojo · Post by **Gallo Rojo** » Wed May 30, 2001 5:51 pm

Originally posted by Warhorse:
OK fellahs, there IS a pontoon bridge graphic!!!!!! I made this awhile ago, and it resides in the same shp file as the other bridges, and roads You can only use it with Fred's mapedit program, but it IS there, have fun!!

Cool Mike!
It will be useful to my scenario
Thanks

Colonel von Blitz · Post by **Colonel von Blitz** » Wed May 30, 2001 8:38 pm

Originally posted by Voriax:
Ah, but if the unit does not move but instead fires all it's shots...say 4 shots...then the turn length for it would be 10-15 seconds.

How's that, or does it say somewhere what is the time interval between shots

...we can assume a lot like that units always fire as rapidly as possible, but that is merely guessing. I based my useless (to be honest) calculation on the information that is actually given in the game. In my simple mind I think this way: if unit fires 4 shots in a turn, then it means average time between shots is 15 seconds.

Of course there could be severe errors in my logic, that wouldn't amaze me a bit

Colonel von Blitz

Larry Holt · Post by **Larry Holt** » Wed May 30, 2001 8:47 pm

Originally posted by Colonel von Blitz:

If you calculate again, you'll see that one turn is exactly ONE minute in real time.

...

Colonel von Blitz
von Blitz ]

Paul Vebber has stated that a turn is about 2 minutes. That some turns nothing happens and some turns are longer. While you can calculate a time distance formula, sometimes a unit ends its move before it reaches the end of its movement highlighted radius. This can be thought of as a "shorter" turn and sometimes a unit gets in lots of shots which can be thought of as a "longer turn".