History Question: What are the Mongolian Cavalry Divisions?

[Q-Ball]

Any history buffs out there who know what those Mongolian Cavalry Divisions are in the IJA? I am guessing from their poor quality, equipment, and name that they are some sort of native Chinese troops conscirpted into Japanese service. Some questions:

Are they Manchukuo units? Were there any Manchukuo units serving with the IJA if these were not?

Are they all "Mongolians", Chinese Mongolians from the Chinese province of Inner Mongolia? Since Mongolia was an independent country under Soviet influence, they could not have come from there.

If they were Chinese, did they volunteer and serve willingly? If so, why? Or were they conscripts?

I am curious if anyone knows! The way the Japs treated most Chinese, I would be surprised if they could have native units who served enthusiastically. But I could be wrong. Some help?

[BossGnome]

also, what is the advantage of getting them on horseback, and why are they the only troops in the IJA army who are on horseback?

[Oleg Mastruko]

I guess they were ethnic Mongolians from Inner Mongolia. Traditionally there's not much love lost between Mongolians and Chinese, and even today - hard as it may seem - there is movement for independent Inner Mongolia, or unification of two Mongolias (Inner and Outer).

Explanation:
Inner Mongolia - nominally an autonomous Chinese province (today as well), before WW2 it was predominandtly ethnic Mongolian, after WW2 Chinese inhabited lots of ethnic Chinese and turned predominantly ethnic Chinese

Outer Mongolia - "independent" state of Mongolia as it is known; since 1920's effectivelly a Soviet puppet

The "twist" is that independent Outer Mongolia is extremely sparsely populated, and actually more Mongols live in Inner M. (thus, in China). Due to Chinese post-WW2 policy, Mongols are now minority even in Iner M.

In such circumstances I don't think it was particulary hard for Japanese to find wiling conscripts among (Inner) Mongolians. It is not widely known, but during the time of Nomonhan incident, many Mongolians from "independent" (Outer) Mongolia, expected Japanese to come as "liberators", formed secret "cells" etc.

But then, Japanese lost, Zhukov triumphed, and whatever remained of anti-Soviet Mongolian feelings was surely crushed under NKVD.

Interesting little units. I love them. They are mobile and movable between Kwantung Area zone and China Expeditionary Army zone.

O.

[tsimmonds]

They make great garrisons in China. Can free up a couple-three divisions from rear-area duty. I mean, let's face it, except for the first two, they are garbage.

[Oleg Mastruko]

They're not garbage! Especially not compared to Chinese units.

Isn't it so that Chinese get some supply from Soviets until the road is cut? I am not sure, should check in the manual. If so, these units should make great "road cutters".

Anyway, they are being discussed here because of their grognard/historic/chrome value, not fighting potential [:D]

O.

[Onime No Kyo]

I could be wrong here but this is what I understood from reading Basil Collier's "War in the Far East"...

These guys are, in fact, Mongols, or at least they started out that way. Their "membership" in the Japanese armed forces dates back to around 1935-6 and has to do with the unofficial reasons behind the whole Khalkhin Gol debacle. Apparently, the Japanese (or rather the Kwantung Army, while giving Tokyo the finger) attempted to install a puppet government in Mongolia (the Soviet-backed Republic thereof) that was willing to cooperate with the Japanese. Moscow, of course, thought otherwise, and the rest is history. After getting kicked out by Zhukov and his friends, the entire "separatist" movement found itself exiled to Manchuria where it remained, fighting on the side of the Japanese, until war's end.

[mogami]

Hi, I've always wanted to vist the Inner part of Outer Mongolia

[Onime No Kyo]

...or was it the Outer part of Inner Mongolia. I can never remember. [:D]

[Tomo]

I tried to find good source about thiese units but couldn't.
However, I've found interesting mpg.file about Nomonhan.

It is very short but interesting.
http://www2.edu.ipa.go.jp/gz/p-rek1/p-s ... rek370.htm
Below link of above page. Above link is Italian conquest of Albania.

and more interesting mpg.files
http://www2.edu.ipa.go.jp/gz/p-rek1/index.htm

use here to read Japanese
http://babelfish.altavista.com/

[cpt_Venomous]

Not really a puppet, more of the symbiosis actually. Before bolshevik revolution Russia helped Mongolians to overthrow Chinese rule, then after the revolution and civil war China was in control again untill retreating Russian Whiteguard units helped to throw out Chinese again. Infamous "Black Baron" Urghen was one of them, proclaimed by mongolian lamas as alive incornation of wargod makhakala baron led mixed Russian-Mongolian makeshift army against Chinese, had utopian plans to rebuild Mongolian Empire by unifying Russia and Mongolia and then invade West, since all the plagues including communist one originated in the West. Was good to common non-commissioned ranks however torched alive his officers. Sent few envoys to Dalai Lama. Lured by his fortune telling charlatan lamas who promised him victory attempted his return to Russia but was repulsed with heavy losses by reds. Driven by visions of Tibetan Shambala, was on his way to invade Tibet but his army had enough of his antics and gradually deserted him, finally Unghern's Mongolian personal guard
tied him up and surrendered Black Baron to reds. Before his execution to deny reds his earned Cross of Saint George awarded for bravery during WW1, Unghern chewed it up with his own teeth.

[tsimmonds]

They're not garbage! Especially not compared to Chinese units.

But compared with IJA units, they are. You have to have garrisons in China. All else being equal, you should use units of the lowest available quality for this duty. Not only do the Cav Divs have lower experience and morale than most IJA Divs, their TOE is lame (artillery? engineers?). In addition as garrison troops they have an advantage over the IJA units, in that they are easier to "make change" with; that is they break down into smaller units that can more efficiently cover the garrision requirements without having lots of points left over. You can cover more garrison requirements with fewer assault points. Leaves more strength for where it is needed. I can see that you really like these units, and I really like them too, just not for the same reasons![;)]

Blocking supply is also a worthy occupation. But that isn't going to require using all ten of them....

[Oleg Mastruko]

Well, they're the *only* collaborationist forces you have on your side as Japanese [:D] They are worth of being praised for that fact alone [:D]

Allies have tons of nations on their side. Japanese have... nothing, apart from them Mongol cavalry and some Indochina militia divisions that should appear *only* if Allies enter Indochina.

O.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

Well, they're the *only* collaborationist forces you have on your side as Japanese [:D] They are worth of being praised for that fact alone [:D]

Allies have tons of nations on their side. Japanese have... nothing, apart from them Mongol cavalry and some Indochina militia divisions that should appear *only* if Allies enter Indochina.

O.

I think this had alot to to with the righteousness of the cause.[:D] Evil Jap fanboys![;)]

[freeboy]

Well, the Japs also get four division if the Chineese or Brits invade Vietnam

[Oleg Mastruko]

Yes that's the Indochina militia I mentioned above.

O.

[freeboy]

I obviously need more sleep!

[cpt_Venomous]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

Well, they're the *only* collaborationist forces you have on your side as Japanese [:D] They are worth of being praised for that fact alone [:D]

Allies have tons of nations on their side. Japanese have... nothing, apart from them Mongol cavalry and some Indochina militia divisions that should appear *only* if Allies enter Indochina.

O.

Well Mongolians were not the only "collaborationist" on Japanese side actually, there were Rus Whiteguards too, ones who escaped after civil war into China, met one personally, he was very fond of Japanese, claimed they restored the order and made Chinese kick their opium habit by torching all the opium joints.

[Iron Duke]

Hi,
Just read a new book - Rays of the Rising Sun , vol 1 Armed Forces of Japans Asians Allies 1931-45
It states From a British Intelligence report in 1943 there were some 694,640 chinese/mongolian/Manchukuo troops allied to japan . Mostly low grade infantry used as garrison , railroad security and anti-partisan units

[Onime No Kyo]

ORIGINAL: cpt_Venomous

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

Well, they're the *only* collaborationist forces you have on your side as Japanese [:D] They are worth of being praised for that fact alone [:D]

Allies have tons of nations on their side. Japanese have... nothing, apart from them Mongol cavalry and some Indochina militia divisions that should appear *only* if Allies enter Indochina.

O.

Well Mongolians were not the only "collaborationist" on Japanese side actually, there were Rus Whiteguards too, ones who escaped after civil war into China, met one personally, he was very fond of Japanese, claimed they restored the order and made Chinese kick their opium habit by torching all the opium joints.

That's where, IMHO, history gets subjective. I've met a former western-Ukranian Polizei who contends that the Germans were liberators to this day. I also talked to a former member of an NKVD division who was stationed on the approaches to Stalingrad while the Germans were rolling up on it. He told me that he never had occasion to see anyone shot for disertion by his unit. And this while we were drinking together. There is probably a very healthy dose of truth to all these claims on some very small local level, but overall, I'd say that we all remember what we want, not what actually happened.

[cpt_Venomous]

Yeah all controversial in Asia, cant really side with anyone, one side forces Chinese to grow opium, another side commits rape of Nanking and third doesnt honor any agreements.