Great game, but what about the Eastern Front?

[kipanderson]

Hi,

Firstly I feel rather guilty, and foolish, in having somewhat overlooked HttR. I did purchase the first game with the Airborne Assault engine and have now just downloaded HttR. I now look forward to giving HttR the time it deserves.

However, it I am a bit disappointed to see that Panther Games have not taken this great engine to the Eastern Front for its third outing [;)]. We fans of Eastern Front have waited some years in the hope that the Eastern Front’s turn would come, only to be let down again [;)].

All operational games are at their best on the Eastern Front, in my very prejudice view [:D].
The units crashing around in a Korsun Pocket type scenario would be bliss with this engine.

Of course, I realise that all this will have been discussed by Panther Games and it’s most hard-core fans sometime ago. Clearly, neither Panther Games nor their most loyal fans were wild about the idea or it would surely have been scheduled to happen with the third outing of the engine.

This does puzzle me. I am far form unique in thinking that the Eastern Front, in many ways, was the dominant front in WWII. Not just because of the facts and figures, 76% of all German land warfare casualties. But because it is where the operational art was both developed and came closest to being perfected.

Have purchased all versions of this engine, and will continue to do so whatever the setting. But it is a shame you are not taking the engine for an outing to the home of operational warfare.

All good fun,
All the best,
Kip.

[MadScot]

Well, there were other theatres, not all of which have been done to death many times over.

And for an operational game such as this, which can't handle much above a corps-level battle at the moment, you run into problems of the sheer scale of the big Eastern Front battles and also how you handle boundaries and adjacent operations. Right now the engine can't handle the full Market-Garden operation in one go (not on any machine any of us are likely to own any time soon) so the idea of applying the engine to Citadel, or Typhoon, or Stalingrad, or many other Eastern Front touchstone battles is a long way off. Korsun is rather an exception in that supply rather restricted the battle, but even then I'd guess there are simply too many units for the current systems to consider.

I applaud panther's decision to do Marita-Merkur next, and if they were to keep with the "airborne" elements then I'd have hoped for another game which exploits the airlanding, supply and invasion-type elements added to the system. Norway, anyone?

[Arjuna]

Kip,

Back in the 70s when I used to game with the likes of Ian Trout from SSG and fight battles like Korsun Pocket and DNO we used to have an expression that "eventually all real wargamers must turn East". My first board and first6 computer wargames both focused on the Eastern front and if we are graced with reasonable commercial success we too will head East once again.

Our game engine is evolving from one title to the next. With each new one we add features and enhance capabilities. Our aim is to develop it to the point where it can handle all WW2 battles. It's not quite there yet. COTA will add in a realistic resupply system and mixed mode movement ( plus a whole swag of other improvements ). We're just dicessung what new features to add for our next game which will be Battles from the Bulge ( BFTB ). At this stage the money is on adding Minefields/Roadblocks ( and the engineering tasks to create and clear them ) and probably Reserves ( the ability to specify a reserve force at each level of planning and for the Player to be able to commit those Reserves without causing a massive replan ) and SOPs ( standard operational procedures, such as "initiate attacks", "bypass on contact" etc, which can be set globally for the side and individually for specific tasks ).

As Madscot says the Eastern Front really cries out for Area of Ops/Boundaries and this would require enhanced map overlays to implement well. Also until processing speeds improve we would need to be careful about what particular battles we cover. Most likely having to do what we have done to date and that is to choose scenarios from various sectors of these battles. Certainly do-able now.

Once COTA gets out I will be pursing the idea of setting up two or three Data Design Teams that will each focus on a particular battle and develop the necessary maps, estabs, force data and scenarios for a new title. That way we hope to be able to release two games per year. We will be calling for expressions of interest from people willing to devote some of their spare time to the cause. We haven't worked out all the details yet but we would aim to reward them financially, albeit not enough to retire on.

With such a sytem in place we can focus on the engine development and still provide the coverage of battles that users demand. I see no reason why one of those Data Design Teams couldn't focus on a battle from the Eastern Front. However, it will depend on a number of factors, one of which will be the interest and enthusiasm of the team members.

So be patient. All good things come to he who waits and "eventually all real wargamers must turn East".

[kipanderson]

Dave,

Your post could not be better news, for multiple reasons.

Great relief to hear that the Eastern Front is on the list.

Equally, my second favourite front is NWE, again very unoriginal. Have been to the Ardennes between 16th-20th December on four occasions over the last decade. Do not wish to make you jealous but rolled out of a bar in Bastogne last December 20th as an M4 Sherman crunched down the high street while snow drifted through the night. Really[:)]. One can still see the foxholes used by Easy company, or a bother company, overlooking Foy!

From my ranting you can see I consider it all outstanding news. Added to the above, you hope to up output to two games a year. Perfect[:D].

Time is always the problem but will certainly be giving HrrT, and future games, their fair share from now on.

Now back to learning how to use the scenario and map editors.

All great stuff,
All the best,
Kip.
PS. My gaming also goes back to the ‘70s, of course I started very young[;)], all those great SPI games and the original Squad Leader… but are all of us not unbelievably spoilt these days with all the PC/internet add you our hobby, plus all the mass of books pouring out on the Eastern Front since the archives opened in the ‘90s.

[Arjuna]

ORIGINAL: kipanderson
Have been to the Ardennes between 16th-20th December on four occasions over the last decade. Do not wish to make you jealous but rolled out of a bar in Bastogne last December 20th as an M4 Sherman crunched down the high street while snow drifted through the night. Really[:)]. One can still see the foxholes used by Easy company, or a bother company, overlooking Foy!

....arrrh...lucky bastard...it's not fair...[:@][;)]

One day...[:)]

[pamak1970]

Our game engine is evolving from one title to the next. With each new one we add features and enhance capabilities. Our aim is to develop it to the point where it can handle all WW2 battles. It's not quite there yet. COTA will add in a realistic resupply system and mixed mode movement ( plus a whole swag of other improvements ). We're just dicessung what new features to add for our next game which will be Battles from the Bulge ( BFTB ). At this stage the money is on adding Minefields/Roadblocks ( and the engineering tasks to create and clear them ) and probably Reserves ( the ability to specify a reserve force at each level of planning and for the Player to be able to commit those Reserves without causing a massive replan ) and SOPs ( standard operational procedures, such as "initiate attacks", "bypass on contact" etc, which can be set globally for the side and individually for specific tasks ).

As Madscot says the Eastern Front really cries out for Area of Ops/Boundaries and this would require enhanced map overlays to implement well. Also until processing speeds improve we would need to be careful about what particular battles we cover. Most likely having to do what we have done to date and that is to choose scenarios from various sectors of these battles. Certainly do-able now.

Once COTA gets out I will be pursing the idea of setting up two or three Data Design Teams that will each focus on a particular battle and develop the necessary maps, estabs, force data and scenarios for a new title. That way we hope to be able to release two games per year. We will be calling for expressions of interest from people willing to devote some of their spare time to the cause. We haven't worked out all the details yet but we would aim to reward them financially, albeit not enough

I like this type of vision for the future.
I would love to see all these new features plus even more.
I also noticed that the plan is to release two games per year.
That seems to me somewhat optimistic ,especially when at the same type we talk about the development and introduction of such new features as reserves, SOPs and boundaries that change radically the mechanisms of the game.

[sterckxe]

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

ORIGINAL: kipanderson
Have been to the Ardennes between 16th-20th December on four occasions over the last decade. Do not wish to make you jealous but rolled out of a bar in Bastogne last December 20th as an M4 Sherman crunched down the high street while snow drifted through the night. Really[:)]. One can still see the foxholes used by Easy company, or a bother company, overlooking Foy!

....arrrh...lucky bastard...it's not fair...[:@][;)]

One day...[:)]

Funny how everyone seems to find this weak spot in your armour [:D]

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

[Arjuna]

Eddy,

If you offer me free accomodation and a guided tour one more time....I might just take you up on it.[;)]

[Arjuna]

ORIGINAL: pamak1970
I also noticed that the plan is to release two games per year.
That seems to me somewhat optimistic ,especially when at the same type we talk about the development and introduction of such new features as reserves, SOPs and boundaries that change radically the mechanisms of the game.

You may well be right but if we're to continue in business we need to generate more income, which means more sales. It will be a matter of striking the right balance. Our policy of not putting a game out until it's rock solid will still stand.

[sterckxe]

ORIGINAL: Arjuna
If you offer me free accomodation and a guided tour one more time....I might just take you up on it.[;)]

I'll even throw in supplies (food & drinks) - and it's a family offer, but don't start bringing over second-cousins [:D]

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

[Arjuna]

[:D]

[Willard]

So be patient. All good things come to he who waits and "eventually all real wargamers must turn East".

Could we stop in North Afrika first???
[:D]

[CriticalMass]

bump

[:D]

[Arjuna]

Willard and CriticalMass,

Why don't you two volunteer to form one of our new Data Design Teams focusing on some North African battles?

[Willard]

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

Willard and CriticalMass,

Why don't you two volunteer to form one of our new Data Design Teams focusing on some North African battles?

Thats are darn good idea!!!
Should I send you an email seperately to discuss the requirements for this?
One of the big issues for me is time committment (due to my current job).
I don't want to volunteer for something first without ensuring I can follow-through.

[Arjuna]

ORIGINAL: Willard
Thats are darn good idea!!!
Should I send you an email seperately to discuss the requirements for this?
One of the big issues for me is time committment (due to my current job).
I don't want to volunteer for something first without ensuring I can follow-through.

Yes please send me an email to dave[at]panthergames[dot]com along with your contact details and a brief resume focusing on wargaming, beta testing, scenario design experience and any military experience you might have.

As to time commitments, I'm trying to make these arrangements as flexible as I can. That's why we want to have at least two or three people on each team. We appreciate that everyone is extremely busy and sometimes things come up which mean you have to "lay low" for a while. So don't worry too much on that score.

[jungelsj_slith]

We're just dicessung what new features to add for our next game which will be Battles from the Bulge ( BFTB ). At this stage the money is on adding Minefields/Roadblocks ( and the engineering tasks to create and clear them ) and probably Reserves ( the ability to specify a reserve force at each level of planning and for the Player to be able to commit those Reserves without causing a massive replan ) and SOPs ( standard operational procedures, such as "initiate attacks", "bypass on contact" etc, which can be set globally for the side and individually for specific tasks ).

How about coop multiplayer? Campaigns and unit persistence between scenarios? How about some graphical work so that I feel like I'm pushing around real groups of soldiers and vehicles rather than blocks of data? What types of features are you coming up with that will draw people to your game outside of the same small group of crusty wargamers? (no offense intended! [:)])

My first board and first6 computer wargames both focused on the Eastern front and if we are graced with reasonable commercial success we too will head East once again.

Which of the features that you listed do you think will grace you with economic success? What is it that you're changing in these games that will fundamentally change the way the people look at your product?

[Arjuna]

molotov_billy,

Coop multiplayer or Team Play is high on our wish list. However, it's a very BIG job as is a Campaign feature. There are still a few other BIG features to add before we get to these, like Minefields for instance, which are needed before we can realistically simulate many battles. So we'll most likely be tackling this before Team Play. Once we have a solid platform for simulating most WW2 battles we will move on to Team Play. I for one really want to do Team Play. I think it would be great.

For our new game, Conquest of the Aegean ( COTA ) we chose to focus on the following features:

• Realistic Resupply System
• Mixed Mode Movement and Slope Effects
• Realistic Delay Task
• Exit Tasks
• Linked Tasks
• Map Improvements
• Enhanced Interface, including:
• - Order of Battle display
• - Display Tool Bar
• - New Planning Tools
• - Message Log and filters
• - SOP History Log
• - Enhanced Terrain popup
• - Improved Data displays
• Improved AI, including:
• - Force Allocation
• - Reaction and Reassessment
• - Formation code
• - Retreat code
• Additional Weather Patterns
• Over 20 new maps
• Over 1,000 new Estabs
• Over 30 new scenarios
• Force List Export/Import
• Mod-able Victory Messages
• Mod-able Terrain Key

Now that's a wopping chunk of changes there and we think they will greatly enhance the game play. As I've said before we're going to grow the game engine by adding new features with each release. As to which features well everyone, including your good self has their own opinion on what they think those features should be and we welcome the feedback.

I would be interested to find out whether others also want to see 3D icons of men and vehicles representing their units. We originally trialled these back when we were developing Red Devils over Arnhem and most feedback was negative. So we dropped the feature in favour of things like better AI. But hey we're open.

[wodin]

ORIGINAL: Arjuna


I would be interested to find out whether others also want to see 3D icons of men and vehicles representing their units. We originally trialled these back when we were developing Red Devils over Arnhem and most feedback was negative. So we dropped the feature in favour of things like better AI. But hey we're open.

Have to see how this was done. I'd rather see as Ive said before a different unit icon for every type of unit.

I'd also like to see the counters have say maybe a slight camo background similar to say SSG games. Or a german cross/SS etc etc backgroind to the counters. I know they are small but hey if it could be great. All of these are purely asthetic I know.

Improved sound would be fantastic. Background battle noises similar to HPS games.
Another thing I'd like to see is a change in the tracer graphic. I'd like to see say Three lines for heavy fire, two lines for medium and one line for suppresed fire. Thicker lines could be arty and tank fire. Just a thought.

[RedMike]

Nah, I like things just the way they are!! This is an elegant, well thought out, excellently coded piece of gaming software.

Regards,
RedMike