Can someone explain..

[Flat Top Junkie]

Not sure if an explanation will reverse our decision to quit UV, but perhaps someone can offer something...

BUNA - Weather OK for air ops...

Airfield Capacity 1 (1)
Supplies 3680
Supplies Reqd 1859
Aviation Support 154
Aviation Support Reqd 87
Support 20
Support Reqd 18

Aircraft Present
9x SBD
10x F4F-3
16x A-24
7x F-5
12x B-25
19x Wirraway
10x Kittyhawk

Now this is 83 total, so a 25% reduction in aircraft launch size applies, yes?

OK total air missions for the day 2
Both Recon, both F-5s both going to the same target

So why isn't anything else happening???

[Gary Thomas]

Offensive missions require a capacity 2 base, level bombers require a capacity 4 base. The only thing you will be flying from that base is CAP.

Cheers

[Flat Top Junkie]

ORIGINAL: Gary Thomas

Offensive missions require a capacity 2 base, level bombers require a capacity 4 base. The only thing you will be flying from that base is CAP.

Cheers

Cheers Gary, thanks for that... I actually found that obsure one line rule in the rulebook....

OK, so what we're actually saying is that the ONLY airfield that the Allies can use to launch offensive missions in the SOPAC theatre is Port Moresby and that 90% of the Allied bombers don't have the range to actually hit anything worthwhile... viz they can't hit either Rabaul or Shortland?

Grim

You know... one of these days Matrix will build the rules into the game... I hope... How about a tool tip guys or a little bit of info when you select a base which tells you *there* what missions the base can support? Ah go on.. make the game user-friendly... we have to with the 'real' systems so why not go for it? [8D]

[jeffs]

OK, so what we're actually saying is that the ONLY airfield that the Allies can use to launch offensive missions in the SOPAC theatre is Port Moresby and that 90% of the Allied bombers don't have the range to actually hit anything worthwhile... viz they can't hit either Rabaul or Shortland?


Wrong again...The allies can use their rather numerous CB and engineering units to build up bases. If you bother to read more of these arcane and obscure rules known to everybody else, you would also deduce that a base can built to 3 levels above the size original size mentioned. So Buna can be a 4 if you build it up. Shockingly there are players who actually use this ability to build up bases frequently.

[TAIL GUNNER]

OK, so what we're actually saying is that the ONLY airfield that the Allies can use to launch offensive missions in the SOPAC theatre is Port Moresby and that 90% of the Allied bombers don't have the range to actually hit anything worthwhile... viz they can't hit either Rabaul or Shortland?

Grim

Actually Port Moresby is in the SWPAC theatre...haha.
And you have quite a few airfields to launch missions from in that area...if you build them up first...
Gili Gili, Buna, Dobadura, Woodlark Is., several other small islands off Gili Gili....

A well-supplied, well-defended Port Moresby is a major pain in the ace for any Jap player....every Jap TF sailing south of Rabaul will need LRCAP...Lae airfield is another target within range of just about every Allied bomber...
This game is SO much more than just bombing the enemy's airbases into dust...

You know... one of these days Matrix will build the rules into the game... I hope... How about a tool tip guys or a little bit of info when you select a base which tells you *there* what missions the base can support? Ah go on.. make the game user-friendly... we have to with the 'real' systems so why not go for it? [8D]

hmm...this game might be too complicated for you...
I'd suggest finding an old copy of Complete Carriers of War...hey, you can actually order your bombers to attack a specific enemy task force...and they'll do it every time!!
How SWEET is that!!?

Of course weather effects, morale, experience, fatigue and all that other non-essential fluff isn't modeled....but you have complete control of everything! Even surface combat!
Sounds exactly like what you want, huh?[:D]

[Flat Top Junkie]

ORIGINAL: jeffs
Wrong again...The allies can use their rather numerous CB and engineering units to build up bases. If you bother to read more of these arcane and obscure rules known to everybody else, you would also deduce that a base can built to 3 levels above the size original size mentioned. So Buna can be a 4 if you build it up. Shockingly there are players who actually use this ability to build up bases frequently.

Just a small point Mr. Rules Guru.

In Coral Sea, Buna's airfield is rated a 1 (1) - doesn't this mean that it can't be expanded?

Shockingly, I did read through the rules, but perhaps this is one I mis-read.

Obviously I'll bow to your infinite, if not sarcastic and arrogant, wisdom.

From what I can work out, the only base available for expansion in '42 is Lunga and that takes quite a while as you have to sea freight units there as it's a slow process using the catalinas to do it.

Thank you so much for your rant though... it did give me a late night laugh!

[:D]

[Flat Top Junkie]

And you have quite a few airfields to launch missions from in that area...if you build them up first...
Gili Gili, Buna, Dobadura, Woodlark Is., several other small islands off Gili Gili....

Can't build them up... are you talking about a campaign game.

A well-supplied, well-defended Port Moresby is a major pain in the ace for any Jap player....every Jap TF sailing south of Rabaul will need LRCAP...Lae airfield is another target within range of just about every Allied bomber...
This game is SO much more than just bombing the enemy's airbases into dust...

Not a pain in the arse for my opponent, in 10 days of game time, I've only had two days when the weather allowed air ops.

hmm...this game might be too complicated for you...

Not at all... Try Air War '80 or Harpoon if you want complicated games. It's just a pain to not have important information available within the game. Instead of being in a PDF manual.

Of course weather effects, morale, experience, fatigue and all that other non-essential fluff isn't modeled....but you have complete control of everything! Even surface combat!
Sounds exactly like what you want, huh?

Nope, all the fluff is good. I'd just like to have some forces I can actually use in a scenario. Or perhaps picking and playing Coral Sea as a PBEM isn't a great advert for the game. It seems to just come down to a heads-up between the two carrier forces and as the US are outnumbered 2:1 it isn't much of a fight.

[Veer]

In Coral Sea, Buna's airfield is rated a 1 (1) - doesn't this mean that it can't be expanded?

All bases can be expanded to 3 above their (x) rating. So a base with a rating of (1) can be expanded to a 4.

Hope this helps! [;)]

[Flat Top Junkie]

ORIGINAL: Veer

In Coral Sea, Buna's airfield is rated a 1 (1) - doesn't this mean that it can't be expanded?

All bases can be expanded to 3 above their (x) rating. So a base with a rating of (1) can be expanded to a 4.

Hope this helps! [;)]

Hey Veer, but expansion beyond the SPS just isn't practical in many of the scenarios - I have tried... I spend time and effort airlifting engineers & supplies in, but they never got finished before game end.

So like I said, it seems that PM is the only option and then it's the proverbial 'all eggs in one basket' problem. You only need one dark cloud and your air ops for the day are shutdown

[Veer]

Hey Veer, but expansion beyond the SPS just isn't practical in many of the scenarios - I have tried... I spend time and effort airlifting engineers & supplies in, but they never got finished before game end.

So like I said, it seems that PM is the only option and then it's the proverbial 'all eggs in one basket' problem. You only need one dark cloud and your air ops for the day are shutdown

You could always expanded Noumea [:D]. Cairns/Cooktown also could do with an upgrade, as could Luganville and Gilli Gilli.

[jeffs]

For the US, expansion is pretty easy, just drop supplies and a couple of CB units and pretty soon your base grows quickly. For the IJN, it takes much more time...Then again, this is pretty accurate. Where you are correct is that in a short scenario (1 month or so) it is difficult to build up a new base and get it functional in time to have a significant effect on gameplay...But that is relatively historic....

[anarchyintheuk]

ORIGINAL: Flat Top Junkie

OK, so what we're actually saying is that the ONLY airfield that the Allies can use to launch offensive missions in the SOPAC theatre is Port Moresby and that 90% of the Allied bombers don't have the range to actually hit anything worthwhile... viz they can't hit either Rabaul or Shortland?

B-17s can hit Rabaul and the Shortlands. It's kinda dangerous to base them there tho. B-17's have a non-existant to low replacement level. In later scenarios and campaign games you'll get more B-17s and B-24s, as well as new aircraft like the B-25J that can hit both.

You know... one of these days Matrix will build the rules into the game... I hope... How about a tool tip guys or a little bit of info when you select a base which tells you *there* what missions the base can support? Ah go on.. make the game user-friendly... we have to with the 'real' systems so why not go for it? [8D]

Nice idea. Unfortunately, the strongpoints of GGs games are not the interface or rule book.


In short scenarios it isn't really worth it to build up small bases (although the VPs are nice). Building over a base's rating takes longer than building to a base's rating and you can speed things up by stopping port and fort construction. Also remember, that when a base is damaged the engineers will always attempt to repair a base before they continue to build. When a port or air field is attacked, your engineers are usually the first ones splattered. Throw in malarial areas and engineers are somewhat brittle. Keep a high level of support and supply for your frontline bases. Air HQs remove a 25% penalty for strikes (IIRC).

[TAIL GUNNER]

Try a different scenario!
I think the Coral Sea scenario you're playing is set-up for a quick and bloody carrier vs. carrier duel.....and that's about it...

I'm pretty sure every other scenario available is longer than that one....

Scenario 19 gets my vote for the best of the best...

Chad

[crsutton]

Are you playing humans? If not you are really missing out. UV is a great pbemail game. I really have had hours of great fun playing it and recommend that you give it another try. Find a human opponent. Some of the middle size scenarios are a lot of fun.

Plus, you will learn the game system playing a human. (they tend to exploit your mistakes [:@] more readily than the computer).

Don't give up so fast. There is a lot of good support in this forum. A lot of the details of the game are missing from the manual. I learned a lot here.

[Flat Top Junkie]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Are you playing humans? If not you are really missing out. UV is a great pbemail game. I really have had hours of great fun playing it and recommend that you give it another try. Find a human opponent. Some of the middle size scenarios are a lot of fun.

Plus, you will learn the game system playing a human. (they tend to exploit your mistakes [:@] more readily than the computer).

Don't give up so fast. There is a lot of good support in this forum. A lot of the details of the game are missing from the manual. I learned a lot here.

Yep, playing PBEM, although I'm wondering if he hasn't got a crack/cheat for the code.

[Joel Billings]

I can appreciate what you're saying, but UV isn't really intended to compete with Flat Top. Flat Top is a very detailed hour by hour tactical wargame which is best modeling engagements that lasted a few days. UV is intended as an operational game that is best simulating campaigns of at least 3 months and better yet 6 months to a year. Comparing a game with daily turns with 12 hour pulses against one with 1 hour turns is really comparing apples and oranges.

As for bases, any base can expand to 3 over it's SPS (standard potential size). It just takes a lot more engineers and supplies to build over your SPS. In longer battles (which is what UV is really intended for), base building is critical to successful playing of the game.

[Flat Top Junkie]

Hey Joel,

Appreciate what you're saying. We had just decided to come back to the game after a little while away, but it's been pure hell.

It's not that we don't know that UV has a lot of variables in it. It's that what we've seen and are seeing is very unbalanced and has basically spoiled the enjoyment of the game for both of us.

Now, maybe it's just a one off, and maybe it's just been a series of bizarre coincidences and bad luck. But surely as players we have the right to ask 'why?'. Isn't that how games & gamers get better.

With 25 years hardcore gaming experience, including games design and playtest, I think I've earned the right to flag up an NPE and say... why?

Particularly when the same thing seems to happen over and over again.. when bad luck becomes software bug.

It seems to me that many have said "steer away from the short scenarios" as they don't give 'lady luck' a chance to even out. This may be the case.

This whole unloading TF thing is my biggest downer of the entire game. for 5 turns the Japs unloaded in Port Moresby and the air attacks on the fleet never hit a single transport, chosing to attack Minesweepers and destroyers. Now, on th 6th turn, the unloading has finished and the first airstrike sinks 3 of the APs and ignores the escorts.

Isn't it right that I should ask "why?" and not be slagged off or called and 'inexperienced gamer' or 'out of my comfort level'?

Maybe there's a valid reason, maybe there's something in the AI, if so, I was hoping that someone would comment one way or the other. Instead I just get people quoting incidences from history where something similar happened one time which is both pointless and useless.

all we've ever asked is a) should players stick to the longer scenarios and b) why do bonkers things seem to happen ALL the time.

[Veer]

With 25 years hardcore gaming experience, including games design and playtest, I think I've earned the right to flag up an NPE and say... why?

[8|]

Which is precisely why you're claiming 'unrealistic' variables based on less than 7 turns of gameplay in a single scenario.

There is no need to tout off your 'qualifications' and claim you've 'earned the right' to comment on the game. While I don't speak for Matrix, everyone here is welcome to comment on the game as they see fit. I'm sorry that you think some (or all) of us have been simply "quoting incidences from history" for a game that is afterall based on being a historical simulation. As I've said before, maybe this game is not for you. You want a level of tactical control over your units that UV will never give you. If you want to play a Pacific War game from an Operational level, then there is no better game (board or otherwise) than UV.

[Flat Top Junkie]

Which is precisely why you're claiming 'unrealistic' variables based on less than 7 turns of gameplay in a single scenario.

Please don't get me wrong here.... this isn't out 1st outing with UV, it's just our 1st game in a while. We decided to come back and give it a whirl perhaps having forgotten about the things that made us stop playing in the 1st place.

OK, you seem to be one of the sane and rational ones around here Veer, so, put yourself in my shoes..

This hasn't just been a one turn thing, it's been an entire scenario thing... all the way along, turn after turn (turn 13 current)

So what do you suggest?

a) It's just bad luck and we should try longer scenarios where luck balances out more

b) It's just what we should come to expect from UV

or

c) There is a problem and something is messed up

I'm sure some smart alec will provide different options... maybe someones great great Uncle's little nephew 3rd removed once sank the Tirpitz with a can-opener and some harsh language!

No one has yet come up with an explanation for the seemingly indestructible IJN APs. 3 different TFs in 3 differened hexes all unloading all being attacked. No hits on APs while unloading, aircraft only target escorts. Once unloading is complete then and only then do the aircraft target the APs.

This happened over the course of 5 consecutive turns, some 20 air attacks.

Once again, the only question I ask is... "is this what we can expect from UV or is it an aberation?"

If it's the norm then I don't think we'll be playing again. If people can offer some sort of indication otherwise then perhaps we'll try to continue with the game.

[Veer]

So what do you suggest?

a) It's just bad luck and we should try longer scenarios where luck balances out more

b) It's just what we should come to expect from UV

or

c) There is a problem and something is messed up

I think what is needed is more in the line of an attitude change. Instead of expecting your subordinate units to do/fly/fire/hit/etc exactly what and how you want, you have to put yourself in the shoes of an overall commander who gives general orders and then 'hopes' for the best. With time and experience you will get a general idea of what your units are capabale of, but that is all.