OOBs

Colonel von Blitz · Post by **Colonel von Blitz** » Thu Nov 08, 2001 2:24 am

Hi!
I'm currently modifying OOBs to match my taste, changes I've made so far:

- removed 'multipliers' from mortars (I always hated those thingys called "82mm mortar x 3"; price was 3 times too large and they delivered only grenades of one mortar <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> )

- gave Elite Recon -status to all scouts and to FOs and FO vehicles which didn't have it for some reason.

- created unarmed bunker that has carry capacity of about 160 (enough room for 1 - 1½ platoon). I gave enough armor to withstand arty. Men get out if one shoots at it directly, but they stay inside even if being hit with indirect weapons. I find these very useful in defensive battles.

- made German equipment in Czech OOB available (must buy from Czech purchase screen)

- made Train available in the Norway OOB <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">
(must buy from Norway purchase screen)

- made 380mm Rail Gun available in the Italian OOB and I also modified it a bit (gave it more punching power <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
(must buy from Italy purchase screen)

- created Siege Howitzer ( <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0"> <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0"> ), available in the Netherlands OOB. This is purely a test, but so far; I LOVE it <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
(must buy from Netherlands purchase screen)

- removed those allied names from japanese planes...now Ki-43 is Hayabusa, not Oscar etc. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

Now, anyone here, let me know about things in the OOB that you've wanted to see and/or "correct". Any ideas are welcome <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

Colonel von Blitz

[ November 08, 2001: Message edited by: Colonel von Blitz ]</p>

Mikimoto · Post by **Mikimoto** » Thu Nov 08, 2001 2:54 am

Hey Colonel.

I hate mortar multipliers too. Its OK for me to convert to single unit (mortar*1).

Elite Recon status for all scouts, FO, mot&mech FO is fine, too.

The unarmed bunker is the idea from a genius <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> because you can really entrench and fortify your core units in defense.

Making available the german units in the Czech oob file is great cause i will not have to modify it.

Train, Rail gun and Siege Howitzers add chrome and fun to the game.

I would like to see onboard arty of all types. For example, making availabel 105mm, 122mm (captured) and 155mm Howitzers for the germans.

I would like to see some Germans armed with submachineguns (not special forces). And adding a SMG to most rifle squads as secondary weapon (the squad leader in most armies).

Also I want some AT weapon (antitank mines, etc..)for infantry squads.

Thanks. <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

[ November 07, 2001: Message edited by: Mikimoto ]</p>

Colonel von Blitz · Post by **Colonel von Blitz** » Thu Nov 08, 2001 3:20 am

Originally posted by Mikimoto:
I would like to see onboard arty of all types. For example, making availabel 105mm, 122mm (captured) and 155mm Howitzers for the germans.

I would like to see some Germans armed with submachineguns (not special forces). And adding a SMG to most rifle squads as secondary weapon (the squad leader in most armies).

Also I want some AT weapon (antitank mines, etc..)for infantry squads.

Thanks for comments <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> German OOBs are quite crowded and thats why some equipment is in the Czech OOB alredy. I'd like to see more special units for germans but where to add them...well, there is room in the Czech OOB <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

Colonel von Blitz

PS. I forgot one change: I removed those allied names from japanese planes...now Ki-43 is Hayabusa, not Oscar etc. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

Mikimoto · Post by **Mikimoto** » Thu Nov 08, 2001 3:47 am

Heil Von Blitz.

You can always overwrite those amphibious tanks. They actually never entered in combat...

Well, the howitzers are in the german oob, but availability is set to 12/49 until end of 1949.
It has been discussed before (against it) but I would love to see them on my battlefields.

AmmoSgt · Post by **AmmoSgt** » Thu Nov 08, 2001 5:47 am

One of the reasons that the mortars are grouped like that is because they reflect the various nations ability to direct and call mortar fire ..
On Board or Off Board a battery of mortars can only fire at so many targets based on that nations doctrine and communictions ability ..and 3 tubes do shoot 3 times the shells and do three times the damage .. but hey it is your OOB and there is no law that says this can't be a fantasy game ..
As to Arty onboard ..well 50 meters a hex X 100 hexes is only 5 kilometers ,and that is divided between both sides .. thats barely enough distance to provide defense in depth and to effectively employ some direct fire Tanks and AT guns, or to use Fire and maneuver with reasonable seperation of elements .. again no law against modifing the OOB's to put stuff on the map that just wouldn't be that close to the front lines .. most the Arty available for on board would in fact be that close, and most the stuff listed as off board wouldn't be that close to the front lines ...
Folks always want more realism , more detail in the equipment .. But the only person that can provide realism in deployment and use of the equipment is the player .. and that can be done by learning understanding and accepting the facts of what a nations doctrine was, and what was concidered to be appropiate and tactically correct for the time period and nation concerned... but again no law that says this can't be a fantasy game ...

Randy · Post by **Randy** » Thu Nov 08, 2001 10:02 am

Mikimoto I think some of the German amphibious
tanks were used during the invasion of Russia. The tauchpanzers were used to cross the River Bug
in 41.

Colonel von Blitz · Post by **Colonel von Blitz** » Thu Nov 08, 2001 12:31 pm

Originally posted by AmmoSgt:
One of the reasons that the mortars are grouped like that is because they reflect the various nations ability to direct and call mortar fire ..

Maybe true, but I hate the fact that one icon on the map represents several mortars, maybe I have something against SP III <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> . I just separated them into individual units now.

..and 3 tubes do shoot 3 times the shells and do three times the damage .. but hey it is your OOB and there is no law that says this can't be a fantasy game ..

Why my mortars didn't do that with original OOBs...I must've had flawed files.

As to Arty onboard ..well 50 meters a hex X 100 hexes is only 5 kilometers ,and that is divided between both sides .. thats barely enough distance to provide defense in depth and to effectively employ some direct fire Tanks and AT guns, or to use Fire and maneuver with reasonable seperation of elements .. again no law against modifing the OOB's to put stuff on the map that just wouldn't be that close to the front lines .. most the Arty available for on board would in fact be that close, and most the stuff listed as off board wouldn't be that close to the front lines ...

So should I just play stupid ready-made scenarios if I wanted to play a PBEM battle representing...let's say breakthrough, where there still is some rear area equipment???

Folks always want more realism , more detail in the equipment .. But the only person that can provide realism in deployment and use of the equipment is the player .. and that can be done by learning understanding and accepting the facts of what a nations doctrine was, and what was concidered to be appropiate and tactically correct for the time period and nation concerned... but again no law that says this can't be a fantasy game ...

More units in OOB doesn't mean unrealistic game, like you said, realistic game needs players who play the game with nations doctrines. Separating mortars, providing howitzers on board, providing Siege Howitzers and Railroad Guns doesn't mean the game is unrealistic if they're used appropriately...it just depends on rules the players agree on.

Trust me, I love to play realistic games. But I also hate too much restrictions. I'm not the guy who buys 10 Wurfrahmen and places them beside Ammo Dump...I'm the guy who fights against that kind of playing <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> I feel I'm going more to realistic direction when I'm changing OOBs...maybe some disagree, but that is their freedom. No-one forces them to use my OOB <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

Colonel von Blitz

Mikimoto · Post by **Mikimoto** » Thu Nov 08, 2001 1:58 pm

Originally posted by AmmoSgt:
One of the reasons that the mortars are grouped like that is because they reflect the various nations ability to direct and call mortar fire ..
On Board or Off Board a battery of mortars can only fire at so many targets based on that nations doctrine and communictions ability ..and 3 tubes do shoot 3 times the shells and do three times the damage .. but hey it is your OOB and there is no law that says this can't be a fantasy game ...

Hey Ammo.

I can agree with you with the usage of mortars, employed as whole sections... but then, How where the use of indirect fire for artillery batteries?
Didn't they fire as a whole battery against a single point or area? Not the same of mortars? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

I think that is not fair speak about "fantastic" use of mortars without speaking about "fantastic" use of Artillery batteries. <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

Colonel von Blitz · Post by **Colonel von Blitz** » Thu Nov 08, 2001 2:16 pm

AmmoSgt has made her/his point, but I'd like to continue with original subject. Good (and realistic <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0"> ) Ideas for OOB modifications are still more than welcome.

Colonel von Blitz

Mikimoto · Post by **Mikimoto** » Thu Nov 08, 2001 2:45 pm

Originally posted by Randy:
Mikimoto I think some of the German amphibious
tanks were used during the invasion of Russia. The tauchpanzers were used to cross the River Bug
in 41.

Hey Randy.

Well, I dont knew that. And now I know that, thank you very much. But were used only ONCE?
If so, put them in the Czech oob, please, and free some slots for more common things... or weren't SMG or AT-mines in the Werhmacht?

Gen.Hoepner · Post by **Gen.Hoepner** » Thu Nov 08, 2001 2:52 pm

I read somewhere,probably in a book about U-boots that the project to use the "snorknel"(I KNOW I WROTE IT WRONG,BUT DON'T HAVE THE TIME TO CHECK THE BOOK^__^)on tanks was led on during the war and performed many times...now i do not remember anything more,but if u want...i can chack it!

regards

Mikimoto · Post by **Mikimoto** » Thu Nov 08, 2001 3:12 pm

Originally posted by Gen.Hoepner:
I read somewhere,probably in a book about U-boots that the project to use the "snorknel"(I KNOW I WROTE IT WRONG,BUT DON'T HAVE THE TIME TO CHECK THE BOOK^__^)on tanks was led on during the war and performed many times...now i do not remember anything more,but if u want...i can chack it!

regards

Hello Hoepner.

Thanks for the info. I wonder if the snorkel was used by some "amphibious" tanks or by normal tanks, as an add-on or mod.

I don't want to say amphi-tanks are ahistorical or something else... but there is a problem with the number of slots in the German oob file. And the amphi-tanks are there, and the onboard heavy artillery pieces are there (with no use, unless scenario designing, cause date are 12/49). And they are wasting space.

If they (matrix) put special stuff in the Czech oob file, Why did not put this (arty and amphis) in it?

asgrrr · Post by **asgrrr** » Thu Nov 08, 2001 4:36 pm

Well sir, many interesting things. I like it when people use their creativity, but even more when they keep it inside the limits of reality.
If you want more ideas of OOB modifications, I have posted mine before. Look up "russian anti tank rifles" and "infantry support weapons" in this forum.

Gen.Hoepner · Post by **Gen.Hoepner** » Thu Nov 08, 2001 4:48 pm

Originally posted by Mikimoto:

Hello Hoepner.

Thanks for the info. I wonder if the snorkel was used by some "amphibious" tanks or by normal tanks, as an add-on or mod.

I don't want to say amphi-tanks are ahistorical or something else... but there is a problem with the number of slots in the German oob file. And the amphi-tanks are there, and the onboard heavy artillery pieces are there (with no use, unless scenario designing, cause date are 12/49). And they are wasting space.

If they (matrix) put special stuff in the Czech oob file, Why did not put this (arty and amphis) in it?

.....I think the normal tanks needed so many modifications to be set up with a snorkel that they couls really be called amphi-tanks!...I agree with u with the Oob space problems....let's use the czech space,but the question is:the characteristics of the german-czech units will be the ones of germans or the ones of czech??
regards

Panzer Leo · Post by **Panzer Leo** » Thu Nov 08, 2001 5:03 pm

Originally posted by AmmoSgt:
One of the reasons that the mortars are grouped like that is because they reflect the various nations ability to direct and call mortar fire ..
On Board or Off Board a battery of mortars can only fire at so many targets based on that nations doctrine and communictions ability ..and 3 tubes do shoot 3 times the shells and do three times the damage ...

No, they don't

<img src="eek.gif" border="0">

Test it yourself and you'll see, that a mortarx3 will not cause the same suppression and damage three mortarx1 will do.

I don't know, where the problem is, but it exists. A mortarx3 (like the Russian one) costs three times more, but cannot even come close to the damage dealt by three mortarx1 (like the U.S. mortar) firing at the same hex.
I like the basic idea of communication problems and mortar bundles, but I think you'll agree, that three mortarx1 or one mortarx3 should cause the same damage, when firing at one target, or ?
So this has nothing to do with fantasy, but might be a real problem...(I also delete mortar bundles in my OOBs because of this)...

maybe this is something for the OOB forun...

pax27 · Post by **pax27** » Thu Nov 08, 2001 6:26 pm

I´d like to know how you set a troop to elite recon status.

I´ve changed the czech OOB much like the above.
Also put the heavier Howitzers to be avaliable in german OOB, I guess I don´t have to use them if I don´t want to.
I also put an armored skirt on the Maus tank, if ever a tank had a skirt...
I changed a few dates of tanks in german OOB, just a tad.
Also, some of the german tanks don´t have the right amount or type of weapons, like main gun or machineguns, at least according to sources I checked.

BTW Colonel von Blitz, did I help at all in your German equipment in Czech OOB post???

Mikimoto · Post by **Mikimoto** » Thu Nov 08, 2001 8:06 pm

Originally posted by pax27:
I´d like to know how you set a troop to elite recon status.

Hola Pax.

In the Oob file, in the formation screen, there is a "special" flag/slot. In it you can put a value:

0 Normal Troops
1 Recon Troops
2 Dedicated Artillery

10 Elite Troops +10 experience/morale
11 Elite Recon Troops
12 Elite Dedicated Artillery

20 Second Line Troops -10 experience/morale
21 Second Line Recon Troops
22 Second Line Dedicated Artillery

By the way, it is in the manual. Hope this helps. <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

Bye.

[ November 08, 2001: Message edited by: Mikimoto ]</p>

pax27 · Post by **pax27** » Thu Nov 08, 2001 8:20 pm

Sure helped...and there´s a lot of things in the manual but the manual isn´t this witty and interesting <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

asgrrr · Post by **asgrrr** » Thu Nov 08, 2001 8:58 pm

If the effectiveness is in fact a problem, you can get around it by creating a "real" x3 unit etc. Copy the mortar and make a new unit with 3 weapons, 3 times the men and 3 times the price. That way you still keep the reality factor, and don't clutter up the map with lots of inauspicious units. That is if you have the space in the OB file...

skukko · Post by **skukko** » Fri Nov 09, 2001 9:47 am

""question is:the characteristics of the german-czech units will be the ones of germans or the ones of czech?? ""

Well, of what I've seen and played it it does matter who is your HQ. I am not sure how much it affects when you buy units/formations under the nations-tag. But it affects the base morale/experience/rally/ and names of the units leaders if you use nations-button when played all preferences On.

What I've done: First custom OOB to get Finnish SS troops. Project cancelled because pbems and online games need same OOBs for both. Next try and test was to buy under the Nations-button Finnish riflemens and changing them in scenarioeditor to German SS. This way I had similar weapons in all multinational SS- Division. And as tests showed: I had characteristics in there. Rumanians have low exp/morale and they will retreat easier than germans. Finns are arquing with enemy by using their own lanquage. You know that *perkele* when they assault (tulta in fact, means fire/ shoot) <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0"> And best is that in campaign-core they were replaced from right nation.

This is the way I did catch weird things: I bought Germans formations under Sovjets HQ by mistake, but I did continue (pbem). I never again do that, never <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> : Tigers didn't hit anything, they did explode from infantry throwing stones or crews bailed out if someone jumped of bushes and said: Boo ! . Infantry (which normally as germans perform well) did not do any good unless kept in one place defending. If not defending they ran from first shot and took casulties over my experience of german infantrys behavior. It was like playing russians with German names. This can be the cause of many posts of weirdness in league-forum during last winter and spring when guys bought US-troops under differend nation HQ to get non-desert map to 'Italy -43' -league.

Hope this helps you.

Personally I would stick with OOBs that came with the game just because of compability with opponents. But then again you may have many installations of game...

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Snorkel and tank: without snorkel 4-6 feet depth, with it to 18 feet depth. Rarity and use of these is beyond my knowledge.

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mosh