british replacement system in BOB

[sven6345789]

as much as i remember, the production of engines and replacement planes was somehow broken for the british side, even with the at that time newest patch applied. Will that be fixed? talking about BOB here.

btw, great idea to bring these two titles out again, i still treasure them. these two products are THE games about the european airwar, if you leave out the russian front.

Thanks Matrix, keep up the great work!!

[otisabuser2]

Hi Sven,

was not too badly broken.

Luckily what's wrong can be easily fixed. [:)]

There is a production delay at Castle Bromwich Spitfire factory. This should actually turn out Spit II from the start. One of the other Spit factories secretly only produces the dire Spit Ib.

Hurricanes work fine.

Think the Defiant, for what it's worth, does not produce. There is also an unused engine type which is unnecessary, forget which. [:(]

Would be glad to hear what else may be broken. All goes to help it getting fixed.......

regards Otisabuser

[seydlitz_slith]

There is a whole with the power plant system. It is possible to win the game in less than a week by hitting the power plants. GG tweaked it somewhat between v1.00 and v1.02, but could not totally eliminate it. When I play BOB I just use the following house rule:

1. German player can not attempt to win by using the power plant exploit. (ok to bomb a couple, but not to use it as the basis to win)
2. UK player can not move any AA out of the power plant sites that start the game there.

If you do this, then you will be ok. The germans never went after the power plants in real life anyways.

[Hard Sarge]

okay first of, I believe it is a explot that should be fixed/closed

but so saying, I don't like the idea, that since the GE didn't go after it. it shouldn't be a vital target

it is some what the same in BTR (but there is so many of them)

it has been said, after the war was over, it was seen how "easy" it would of been to cripple the GE war effert by taking out the power plants, instead of the Plane Factories/Oil/RR

but at the time, they thought they would be a much HARDer target to hit and take out, so didn't go for them

soooooo, we need to close the explot, but also leave the option open

[Speedysteve]

I agree with HS on this

[otisabuser2]

Hi all,

the powerplants are just about all wrong in BoB game.

By adding in many more smaller actual power stations, this exploit can be eliminated. [:D]

regards Otisabuser

[Hard Sarge]

Roger
I think they may of just been added, to give targets, I think we got much more info on the targets now, so a more and better target base could be made

if we have a better listing of "all" the power stations during that time, it would be better

which I think this may be what OB is hinting at

[seydlitz_slith]

My suggestion would be to just remove them from the map. If you remove the target locations they can not be bombed. After all, the Germans didn't try, so not even having them as valid targets would be a good historical solution.

[Hard Sarge]

I got to disagree

any targets of value should be there, if the player wants to attack a different target then the GE high command went after, it should be open to try

your line of thought, the player should only be able to attack this or that, during phase one, then on phase two, it has to change to a different target type, based on what they did during the war

[Greyshaft]

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

I got to disagree....any targets of value should be there, if the player wants to attack a different target then the GE high command went after, it should be open to try... your line of thought, the player should only be able to attack this or that, during phase one, then on phase two, it has to change to a different target type, based on what they did during the war

I'd say Power plants are a valid target and should be included but not so that you can win the war in two weeks. Even if someone can mathematically prove that British collapse this would have happened if Hermann had gone for the power plants I would argue that such a tactic doesn't belong in the game. In a simulation of a historical event the victory is by doing "better" than the original combatant.. ie the German challenge should be to beat the British by September rather than October, not by beating them by 10am rather than 11am on the second day of the war. To provide that challenge within a game it is necessary to set up boundaries so that the player is called on to use strategic thinking... not just pick an exploit.

Keep the Power Plants. Make them less important

[von Shagmeister]

I agree with both of you. I think that a strategy game should model whichever theatre/campaign etc as accurately as possible. The conditions that existed at the start of the particular battle etc should be in place. It is then up to the player to decide how he wishes to conduct his war, his strategy should determine the course of the game.

Regards

von Shagmeister

[Hard Sarge]

Hi Greyshaft
I think you misunderstood me, I said, I want the explot taking out of the game, but I think the target as a target should be left in

which if that means lowing the value or making it smaller and more of them, is up to the designer

but it should not be there to be exploted

(in BTR, we found out there was a mistake in the code, that anything over 33,000 ft, bombed better then it should have, but as we could not change the code, the thinking was, at least, we could change the data, so now, the planes can not fly that high, we got the explot out of the game, but took away, something that the player should of been able to do, fly at high alt)

[seydlitz_slith]

Sad to say, you would have to remove them as a target class. GG reduced the effect of the plants as much as possible in the later patches. The problem is the logistics model and the role the power plants play. If you left them in, you would have to remove their effect from the logistics model altogether, making them pointless to attack.

[Greyshaft]

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

Hi Greyshaft
I think you misunderstood me, I said, I want the explot taking out of the game, but I think the target as a target should be left in

Actually I'm agreeing with you 100%

If I play BOB or a variant thereoff I have a historical perspective that the game will go down to the wire sometime in Octoberish when winter arrives. If the computer says winter arrives in August this year and that is historically justifiable then I accept that Germany loses. Howeve if winter in August only happens in 10% of years historically then I expect it to occur in only 10% of the games. Weather is in the Lap of the Gods... power plants aren't.

I think the game should be won or lost based on outTHINKING the enemy... not out EXPLOITING them. Each strategy should have a viable counter-strategy and the game is lost by not correctly identifying the enemies strategy and therefore not applying the correct counter-strategy in time. I don't like the game being lost when you correctly identify the strategy in plenty of time "its turn one and he's going for my power plants!!!" but despite everything you do you still lose because there is no viable counter-strategy.

Power plants is a viable strategy.
There should be a viable counter-strategy put into the game.

[Nikademus]

Powerplants impact things that much??

true of BTR as well? (hmmm evil thoughts heading Speedy's direction)

[Hard Sarge]

Hi Nik
well.....

Power is needed to run the Factories, if there is no Power, all the Factories shut down, all the Factories shut down, you get the points for non production that is being lost

(sort of like in BTR, you knock down a RR, you also score the points for the Factories that would of been using that RR to move it's stuff around)

now in BoB, there are not really too many Power Stations, and that is what makes the explot, it don't take much to knock them out, if you really try to get them (hassle being, most are way up north

(now the bad news for BTR, there are 5134 points of Power stations in BTR (from the GE side, Allied side may look like less) and only about 10 of them are size 10 and above, so, there are many, many size 3 stations that got to be hit)

if you still early in your game, IT has a good number of Power station in the south (new add ons from JC)

other then that, I normally try to wait till the breakout before I really go after them, but if you can drop that number down below 2000, then you get to really ruin the GE production numbers

[Speedysteve]

Nik are you that dumb? [:D][;)]

Critical Industries to note in BTR:

ALUM - affects AFAC
BBFAC - AFAC and ARM
CHEM - RUBBER and OIL IIRC
ELEC - EVERYTHING
STEEL - ARM and UFAC
RUBBER - ARM

As Sarge says rail are good since you can get terror points and smack the rail which will impact the efficiency of the surrounding industry. It can also create bottlenecks and stop certain parts reaching their destination etc.

Come try it in our BTR game. You have far too few forces and are too far away to impact my power plants. Go on I dare you [:'(]

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Nik are you that dumb? [:D][;)]

Opinions vary. Ask my A-20 pilots.

I realized that PP's are critical, and that there's alot of them so no easy task in BTR. However based on the descriptions posted previously (i.e. "exploit") i was more wondering if the consensus was that PP's impact things too much when bombed sufficiently.

[Speedysteve]

My opinion is that BTR has it right. The German PP system WAS a weakness. The industry is IMO reflected amply in BTR and as such it is a valid target to smash and the consequences once more IMO are realistic.

[Hard Sarge]

Speedy
be nice

here, something not too many people have ever seen before

and I doubt many will again