I just don't understand land combat

[GaryChildress]

It just looks to me like the attack below would have generated something better than 0 to 1 odds. [&:]

[Terminus]

Heh! In my current WPO game vs. Bill Durrant, I've generated 0 to 1 odds in Manilla something like twenty times, even though I outnumber him by about three to one. The game also factors in disruption, fatigue, supplies, terrain, fortification, etc...

Still, ground combat isn't WitP's strong side.

[2Stepper]

I agree with you 100% Terminus. It DOES work, but not what you might consider "perfectly". They went to great lengths to make it less of a hexmap, counters wargame (though some elements of those linger) and more into the logistics. If you're well supplied and fortified in a tough terrain area, you can hold out for a LONG, LONG time.

History is full of facts like that. What gets tough to stomach is when those ratios stay the same and 45K men can hold out in a 6 level fort against 210K men. Again, I admit history does have examples of such stands, but they didn't have 88mm cannon and tanks then either... [&:]

Whats my point? We're left with a decent system that often times leaves you guessing about how to fight land battles... Good thing or bad thing? Everyone is bound to have a different view. Guess it depends which business end of those "odds" your fighting from.

Just my 2 cents..

[Captain Ed]

Good reply. Now can anyone tell me if engineer units will help in a non base combat. Hate to squander them in battle if they will not help in a non-base hex I know that units in a non-base hex will build fortifcation`s will the engineers help reduce those.[&:]

[tsimmonds]

It just looks to me like the attack below would have generated something better than 0 to 1 odds.

Factors other than numbers and fortifications that affect adjusted assault value:

• preparation
• disruption
• fatigue
• morale
• experience
• supply
• leaders
• headquarters
• terrain
• ...

Most of the items on that list are capable of halving or even quartering your assault value, cumulatively. You get very many of them going against you, and you can forget all about making headway on the ground.

[mogami]

Hi, It is very important in land combat that the units involved be in range of their HQ. (can alter a 6-1 to 0-1 ) This works when you are the outnumbered party. Being prepared for combat in the hex it occurs changes the combat value by 100 percent. (100k not ready fight like 50k and 50k 100 percent ready fight like 100k) Supply levels alter the ratios. Leaderships and then the normal factors like disruption, fatigue, morale and experiance. In the end raw troop numbers matter less then many players suppose.

[kkoovvoo]

Gary,
I believe the main problem is you have less vehicles (and another one was destroyed in this combat).

[Skyros]

Looks like a staff officer or WO was in charge.[:'(]

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

It just looks to me like the attack below would have generated something better than 0 to 1 odds. [&:]

[Knavey]

What are the real assault values of that attack?

That screenie you posted has exactly ZERO useful info. Most players think that particular screen has info but it is the most misleading screen out there.

You need to watch the entire combat replay and look at the last couple of screens. They have the REAL results of your combat, and from those you can deduce what is really going on.

Look at the Ajusted Assault Value at the end of the replay for your units and also of the enemies. Just because you have 1000 assault points showing on the info screen, doesn't mean it's there during the assault. You might really be at 300 points, and your opponents may be quite higher than what you believe his to be which would give you the 0-1 odds result but still show misleading results on the screenie you posted. The only way to know for sure is to watch the combat replay.

I will see if I can find some "examples" to post.

[Knavey]

Take a look at this screenie below.

It occurs during a Japanese Deliberate Assault just southeast of Wuchow in a wooded hex. The screenie is of the Adjusted Japanese Assault value. Typical Japanese Divisions run at an assault value of 800ish and yet these are only assaulting with 200-250. The best IJA divisions are only in the 300 range.

Attacking force 183162 troops, 1511 guns, 426 vehicles

Defending force 135109 triips, 486 guns, 0 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 0 to 1

Japanese ground losses:
6696 casualties reported
Guns lost 126
Vehicles lost 17

Allied ground losses:
1320 casualties reported
Guns lost 28


In theory looking at this he should have 1:1 odds based on 7 IJA division @ 800 = 5600 points vs. 16 CHINF corps @250 = 4000. But you can see his divisions are not doing very well (some of the CHINF corps are in bad shape also) and his armor is almost completely depleted.

I will post a series of screenies I took during the month of May and if you look closely, you can see how hard his troops are taking it during the series of assaults.


5/3/42

[Knavey]

His next assault was 3 days later on the 6th. Even though he thinks he is assaulting with armor support, they didn't even show up this time probably due to being overworked last time. Look at their assault value on this screen...ZERO! His divisions are not faring very well either. I do not have my notebook with me that has the CHINF assault values, but here are the combat results.

Attacking force 172147 troops, 1363 guns, 407 vehicles

Defending force 133458 troops, 445 guns, 0 vehicles

Japanese Assault odds: 0 to 1

Japanese ground losses:
2505 casualties reported
Guns lost 73
Vehicles lost 13

Allied ground losses:
753 casualties reported
Guns lost 22

Again, severely outnumbered in guns and vehicles the CHINF handed out a beating because my opponent is not watching his troops as closely as he should.

05/06/42

[Knavey]

And two days later...yet ANOTHER assault!

05/08/42

[Knavey]

Notice how in the last two assaults his Ajusted Assault value has gone from 2000 down to 800 and is still dropping. R&R, a change of commander, more troops, or something is in order in this assault above.

Hope this shows you guys something to look at during your ground combat. Instead of just hitting ESC, look at the USEFUL stuff and ignore that last popup screen. It is only misleading.

[Cpt Sherwood]

And just in the heck is this information not provided without having to watch the entire assault and then try and catch the last two screens? One more instance of really bad design decisions. [:@]

[kaleun]

I guess I should start watching the combat replays[;)] and not just reading the combat reports.[X(]

[Feinder]

LCU combat is (unfortunately) :
a. one of the most important aspects of the game
b. one of the least understood aspects of the game
c. the least known, that it is misunderstood, aspect of the game (if you take my meaning).

LCU combat is -gravely- imporant. Can be more so than even sinking enemy CV. (yep). Take a look at the point losses in any campaign '41 game. The single highest point gainer for Japan is thru LCU casualties. While I think the vp weight for losses is far too high, the game is what it is. And you MUST realize how important ground combat is, because Allied ground combat losses are the single greatest contributer to the Japanese total.

Most folks never sit thru the replay to gather that single most impornt tid-bit of info - the adjusted odds. Yes, it's stupid that it's not available. But until that gets patched in, you -do- have to sit thru the animation. Granted you don't have to watch all the animations. But if the battle is important to you, you had better force yoursef to watch it.

-F-

[tabpub]

But if the battle is important to you, you had better force yoursef to watch it.

What I do now, is setup the digital camera on video in front of the screen; start it running before the combat and go off to do whatever (make a sandwich, do my necessaries, laundry, etc.). Then I can come back and rewind it to the part that gives the assualt values. Only need to do it on the big fights, but, those are the most important ones after all....

[kaleun]

[X(][X(][8|][&o][&o][&o]

Now that is a professional setup[&o]

[Captain Ed]

Isn`t this why we have spouses to keep us fed and looking after our needs so we can take the fight to the enemy. Kinda like having a logistics officer on staff.[:D][:D]

ORIGINAL: tabpub

But if the battle is important to you, you had better force yoursef to watch it.

What I do now, is setup the digital camera on video in front of the screen; start it running before the combat and go off to do whatever (make a sandwich, do my necessaries, laundry, etc.). Then I can come back and rewind it to the part that gives the assualt values. Only need to do it on the big fights, but, those are the most important ones after all....

[ADavidB]

ORIGINAL: Feinder

LCU combat is (unfortunately) :
a. one of the most important aspects of the game
b. one of the least understood aspects of the game
c. the least known, that it is misunderstood, aspect of the game (if you take my meaning).

LCU combat is -gravely- imporant. Can be more so than even sinking enemy CV. (yep). Take a look at the point losses in any campaign '41 game. The single highest point gainer for Japan is thru LCU casualties. While I think the vp weight for losses is far too high, the game is what it is. And you MUST realize how important ground combat is, because Allied ground combat losses are the single greatest contributer to the Japanese total.

Most folks never sit thru the replay to gather that single most impornt tid-bit of info - the adjusted odds. Yes, it's stupid that it's not available. But until that gets patched in, you -do- have to sit thru the animation. Granted you don't have to watch all the animations. But if the battle is important to you, you had better force yoursef to watch it.

-F-

And with the current design of the game, the most important thing to remember about ground combat is to avoid it at all costs if you do not have an overwhelming local advantage in troops, experience, morale, supplies, leaders, disruption, etc, etc, etc....

That's why, for the Allies in the first year or so of a full campaign game, it is so critical to pull back as much as possible to areas that have a hope of being defended, rather than trying wasteful "do or die" stands which inevitably end up as "do and die"...

Dave Baranyi