Hi All,
Will tanks be able to achieve a hull down status? The terrain I have seen so far seems for the most part flat. Would that be geographically accurate, more or less, to where the battles were fought?
Regards John
Hull Down?
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Erik Rutins
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RE: Hull Down?
ORIGINAL: z1812
Will tanks be able to achieve a hull down status? The terrain I have seen so far seems for the most part flat. Would that be geographically accurate, more or less, to where the battles were fought?
Hull down is possible to achieve. The terrain is mostly flat, but there is some rolling terrain, river valleys, etc. The maps themselves were created not only for the specific campaign but also intending them to be reusable for modified scenarios set in the general area and timeframe, so think of them more as Squad Leader maps in that regard.
Regards,
- Erik
Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC
For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/
Freedom is not Free.
CEO, Matrix Games LLC
For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/
Freedom is not Free.
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Yoozername
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RE: Hull Down?
Will hull down be a 'binary' state (the way its mis-modeled in CM?) or some means of variable cover (the way it is in real life?).
Actually a vehcile can be modeled easily as:
Hull up (no cover)
Track-down (bow MG may be used)
Hull down
Turret down
no LOS
The related technical aspect of gun depression and being on sloped terrain will also be modeled? For certain AFV with minimal depression (and high mounted trunnions), its possible to be in an excellent hull-down position yet the gun can not be depressed enough to fire.
Actually a vehcile can be modeled easily as:
Hull up (no cover)
Track-down (bow MG may be used)
Hull down
Turret down
no LOS
The related technical aspect of gun depression and being on sloped terrain will also be modeled? For certain AFV with minimal depression (and high mounted trunnions), its possible to be in an excellent hull-down position yet the gun can not be depressed enough to fire.
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Yoozername
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RE: Hull Down?
Some relevant info...
Second, on how vehicle combat works...
Yes, the "to hit" is also a roll, as is "to penetrate". The combat engine is realistic, but not hyper-realistic. So, this is not a Combat Mission or a Tank Sim, but more along the lines of a Close Combat or East Front in terms of the level of detail and the types of calculations.
Let me give you a detailed example of what goes on under the hood, let's take a PzKfwIVF2 firing at a T-70 at about 500 meters with APHE ammunition and we'll also look at the T-70 firing at the PzKfwIVF2. We'll assume both crews are Veteran, since experience can affect various things in these calculations and Veteran is the "default" (no modifiers) level.
PLEASE NOTE: The game does all this for you once you tell one tank to shoot at another, but I want to give you an idea of what it's taking into account.
We're just going to do a single shot here, though rate of fire is also modeled, as is turret speed. We'll just assume they're both facing each other head on. We will also assume they have sighted each other, which is not a given as there can be vast differences in your sighting range and effectiveness based on what your tank is doing and what the other tank is doing. For example, a PzKfwIVF2 rushing forward would almost certainly be shot at by that T-70 before it realized the T-70 was there.
Ok, now let's say the PzKfw IVF2 shoots its first shot at the T-70. First, the 75mm/L43 has a To Hit number of 5 at 500 meters. It's almost a sure hit inside of about 425 meters, but the difficulty starts to climb after that. So the base roll to hit is a 5 or more on a d10.
Since this is the first shot at a target over 300m away, that's modified up to a 6. The T-70 also has a size modifier of 1 (it's a small tank) which makes this a 7. There are no modifiers for previous shooting, for either tank moving or for shell type (HEAT and HE are less accurate), nor are there modifiers for cover in this case. We'll say the Panzer already turned its turret the previous phase, so no penalty for that either. So, basically, we have to roll a 7 or more on a d10 to hit with our first shot, which gives us a 40% chance. After the first shot, this goes up to a 50% chance. Once we actually score a hit (any hit) on the target, this goes up by another 10% to 60% as it's considered to be an "acquired target". If we were shooting at the side rather than the front there would also be a bonus. Note that the "to hit" roll is open-ended, so a result of 10 has a 50% chance to end up being a 11-15, which allows "lucky shots" to happen (i.e. driving forward, turret turning, snap shot at 500m, ping! - highly unlikely, but possible
. Anyway, let's say we hit.
The penetration for the 75mm/L43 at that range with APHE is a 10 (it has a value of 10 from >450m to <=625m). That's a nice penetration value! We use the front location chart here (note that there are also changes for things like side deflection shot, etc. which is calculated based on the angle of the shot and can lead to multiplying the effective enemy armor if you are at a poor angle). The T-70 does not have shabby front armor though. Its hull is a 7 (sloped) in 3 of 5 Hull locations, the other two Hull locations are Armor 4 and the three turret locations are one 4 and two 4 (rounded). We also have two Track locations with 1.5. The location for the hit works like this - you look at the side you are hitting (the front) and roll a d10. Let's say we hit the best armor on the T-70, the 7 Sloped Hull armor (30% chance to hit that with a front hit).
Now the game looks at the ammo type. It's APHE. We compare it to the armor type (sloped) and roll to see what the _actual_ penetration value is, starting with our base of 10. This is also an "open ended" roll, so you can get "critical hits" that penetrate more than they would normally be able to. In this case, there is about a 33% chance of normal penetration (10), a 16% chance of penetration 9, 16% chance of penetration 7 and a 33% chance of penetration 5 (this would be the only non-penetration, if you get below the armor value the shot bounces off). There's also about an 8% chance of a critical penetration, which could go anywhere from a 11 penetration up to a 20 effective penetration once all is done (about a 2% chance for the 20).
So, there's about a 33% chance of a non-penetration once we hit the T-70, provided we get the best armor location and roll the worst penetration result. Let's say we get a penetration of 9. This goes through the armor in this location, so we penetrate and have to roll for effects.
The 75mm/L43 APHE has a "D"estruction rating of 6 and a "S"tun rating of 10. On any hit, even if it deflects, this means there is a base 10% chance to stun the target vehicle (roll a 10 or more on a d10). In the case of the T-70, as a light tank it gives a +1 to our Stun roll. If we actually damage it, that adds another +1 to the roll. The "D"estruction value is what we check against to see what a penetrating hit does once it gets inside the vehicle.
In this case, we've penetrated the Hull Front, so there are two damage results possible. The first is destruction of the vehicle. The second is Mobility damage (kill the driver, wreck the steering, etc.). For each one, we roll a d10 and try to get equal to or greater than the value for the shell, which is a 6. However, since our penetration exceeded the armor (by 2 in this case) we do get a +1 to this roll. In effect, we have a 60% chance to knock out the T-70 and a 50% chance to destroy its mobility. If both chances fail, the shot had no real effect (other than the Stun chance).
So the net effect for this exercise: PzKfwIVF2 had a 40% chance to hit on its first shot, a 66% chance to penetrate if it hit the best armor on the T-70 and a 60% chance to destroy the T-70 in our example.
Now, let's say we did no damage at all and we failed to stun the T-70. So, the T-70 shoots back. Realize the odds are stacked against this little tank, but we'll try.
The Soviet 45mm/L46 with AP ammo has a base to hit of 8 at 500 meters. As with the Panzer, this is modified to a 9 because this is the first shot. However, the PzKfwIVF2 is not a small target, so there is no additional penalty to hit for size. Again, no modifers for movement, etc. due to how we set up this example.
So the T-70 has a 20% chance to hit. Let's say it hits, just for this example.
The penetration on its AP round is a 4 at 500 meters.
The Front of the PzKfwIVF2 has six locations with 5 armor, one with a 6 armor, two with a 2 armor (tracks) and one with a 9 sloped armor (part of the Hull). This means that unless the T-70 rolls the 20% hit location chance to hit a track, its AP round is very likely to bounce off. Let's say it hits a 5 Armor location on the Turret. It would need to roll a Critical Penetration (8% Chance) to get through. Let's say it does that and ends up just barely penetrating (penetration 5). The "D"estruction number for its round is a 7 and since it didn't over-penetrate, it gets no bonus. The "S"tun number is a 12, making it very unlikely to stun as well. If it penetrated the turret though, it could have a chance to destroy the Panzer, disable its main gun or kill the tank commander. Chances are it would get one of those results, since it has a 7+ on a d10 for each one. But in this case, hitting and penetrating at 500m is the toughest part as the T-70 is really outclassed in this duel.
Anyway, I hope that explains things better. Back to work...
Regards,
- Erik
Second, on how vehicle combat works...
Yes, the "to hit" is also a roll, as is "to penetrate". The combat engine is realistic, but not hyper-realistic. So, this is not a Combat Mission or a Tank Sim, but more along the lines of a Close Combat or East Front in terms of the level of detail and the types of calculations.
Let me give you a detailed example of what goes on under the hood, let's take a PzKfwIVF2 firing at a T-70 at about 500 meters with APHE ammunition and we'll also look at the T-70 firing at the PzKfwIVF2. We'll assume both crews are Veteran, since experience can affect various things in these calculations and Veteran is the "default" (no modifiers) level.
PLEASE NOTE: The game does all this for you once you tell one tank to shoot at another, but I want to give you an idea of what it's taking into account.
We're just going to do a single shot here, though rate of fire is also modeled, as is turret speed. We'll just assume they're both facing each other head on. We will also assume they have sighted each other, which is not a given as there can be vast differences in your sighting range and effectiveness based on what your tank is doing and what the other tank is doing. For example, a PzKfwIVF2 rushing forward would almost certainly be shot at by that T-70 before it realized the T-70 was there.
Ok, now let's say the PzKfw IVF2 shoots its first shot at the T-70. First, the 75mm/L43 has a To Hit number of 5 at 500 meters. It's almost a sure hit inside of about 425 meters, but the difficulty starts to climb after that. So the base roll to hit is a 5 or more on a d10.
Since this is the first shot at a target over 300m away, that's modified up to a 6. The T-70 also has a size modifier of 1 (it's a small tank) which makes this a 7. There are no modifiers for previous shooting, for either tank moving or for shell type (HEAT and HE are less accurate), nor are there modifiers for cover in this case. We'll say the Panzer already turned its turret the previous phase, so no penalty for that either. So, basically, we have to roll a 7 or more on a d10 to hit with our first shot, which gives us a 40% chance. After the first shot, this goes up to a 50% chance. Once we actually score a hit (any hit) on the target, this goes up by another 10% to 60% as it's considered to be an "acquired target". If we were shooting at the side rather than the front there would also be a bonus. Note that the "to hit" roll is open-ended, so a result of 10 has a 50% chance to end up being a 11-15, which allows "lucky shots" to happen (i.e. driving forward, turret turning, snap shot at 500m, ping! - highly unlikely, but possible
. Anyway, let's say we hit. The penetration for the 75mm/L43 at that range with APHE is a 10 (it has a value of 10 from >450m to <=625m). That's a nice penetration value! We use the front location chart here (note that there are also changes for things like side deflection shot, etc. which is calculated based on the angle of the shot and can lead to multiplying the effective enemy armor if you are at a poor angle). The T-70 does not have shabby front armor though. Its hull is a 7 (sloped) in 3 of 5 Hull locations, the other two Hull locations are Armor 4 and the three turret locations are one 4 and two 4 (rounded). We also have two Track locations with 1.5. The location for the hit works like this - you look at the side you are hitting (the front) and roll a d10. Let's say we hit the best armor on the T-70, the 7 Sloped Hull armor (30% chance to hit that with a front hit).
Now the game looks at the ammo type. It's APHE. We compare it to the armor type (sloped) and roll to see what the _actual_ penetration value is, starting with our base of 10. This is also an "open ended" roll, so you can get "critical hits" that penetrate more than they would normally be able to. In this case, there is about a 33% chance of normal penetration (10), a 16% chance of penetration 9, 16% chance of penetration 7 and a 33% chance of penetration 5 (this would be the only non-penetration, if you get below the armor value the shot bounces off). There's also about an 8% chance of a critical penetration, which could go anywhere from a 11 penetration up to a 20 effective penetration once all is done (about a 2% chance for the 20).
So, there's about a 33% chance of a non-penetration once we hit the T-70, provided we get the best armor location and roll the worst penetration result. Let's say we get a penetration of 9. This goes through the armor in this location, so we penetrate and have to roll for effects.
The 75mm/L43 APHE has a "D"estruction rating of 6 and a "S"tun rating of 10. On any hit, even if it deflects, this means there is a base 10% chance to stun the target vehicle (roll a 10 or more on a d10). In the case of the T-70, as a light tank it gives a +1 to our Stun roll. If we actually damage it, that adds another +1 to the roll. The "D"estruction value is what we check against to see what a penetrating hit does once it gets inside the vehicle.
In this case, we've penetrated the Hull Front, so there are two damage results possible. The first is destruction of the vehicle. The second is Mobility damage (kill the driver, wreck the steering, etc.). For each one, we roll a d10 and try to get equal to or greater than the value for the shell, which is a 6. However, since our penetration exceeded the armor (by 2 in this case) we do get a +1 to this roll. In effect, we have a 60% chance to knock out the T-70 and a 50% chance to destroy its mobility. If both chances fail, the shot had no real effect (other than the Stun chance).
So the net effect for this exercise: PzKfwIVF2 had a 40% chance to hit on its first shot, a 66% chance to penetrate if it hit the best armor on the T-70 and a 60% chance to destroy the T-70 in our example.
Now, let's say we did no damage at all and we failed to stun the T-70. So, the T-70 shoots back. Realize the odds are stacked against this little tank, but we'll try.
The Soviet 45mm/L46 with AP ammo has a base to hit of 8 at 500 meters. As with the Panzer, this is modified to a 9 because this is the first shot. However, the PzKfwIVF2 is not a small target, so there is no additional penalty to hit for size. Again, no modifers for movement, etc. due to how we set up this example.
So the T-70 has a 20% chance to hit. Let's say it hits, just for this example.
The penetration on its AP round is a 4 at 500 meters.
The Front of the PzKfwIVF2 has six locations with 5 armor, one with a 6 armor, two with a 2 armor (tracks) and one with a 9 sloped armor (part of the Hull). This means that unless the T-70 rolls the 20% hit location chance to hit a track, its AP round is very likely to bounce off. Let's say it hits a 5 Armor location on the Turret. It would need to roll a Critical Penetration (8% Chance) to get through. Let's say it does that and ends up just barely penetrating (penetration 5). The "D"estruction number for its round is a 7 and since it didn't over-penetrate, it gets no bonus. The "S"tun number is a 12, making it very unlikely to stun as well. If it penetrated the turret though, it could have a chance to destroy the Panzer, disable its main gun or kill the tank commander. Chances are it would get one of those results, since it has a 7+ on a d10 for each one. But in this case, hitting and penetrating at 500m is the toughest part as the T-70 is really outclassed in this duel.
Anyway, I hope that explains things better. Back to work...
Regards,
- Erik
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Yoozername
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RE: Hull Down?
Does the game make the to hit number for a hull down tank higher? How does the game handle the hit location of a hull down vehcile?
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koiosworks
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RE: Hull Down?
ORIGINAL: Yoozername
Does the game make the to hit number for a hull down tank higher? How does the game handle the hit location of a hull down vehcile?
No, for hull down, all hit locations < 7 have an additional armour value added to them (based on what they are hiding behind) from 1-6 extra armour value points. This effectively reduces the chance that a hit will penetrate. no penetrate, no damage possible.
hope that helps!
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Yoozername
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RE: Hull Down?
Hopefully this is an increasing value as the hit location goes down in n umber;i.e. hit location 6 gets a +1, hit location 5 gets a +2, hit location 4 gets a +3, etc.
I would not want this set to <7 but actually variable. That is, depending on the terrain 'height' itself. A low thick rock wall may only be <4 for example. It would have a uniform 'armor' effect to model its corresponding thickness.
Hull down effects from rear slope positions give a non-uniform 'armor' effect. The lower parts of the vehcile being much better protected than the upper parts.
I would not want this set to <7 but actually variable. That is, depending on the terrain 'height' itself. A low thick rock wall may only be <4 for example. It would have a uniform 'armor' effect to model its corresponding thickness.
Hull down effects from rear slope positions give a non-uniform 'armor' effect. The lower parts of the vehcile being much better protected than the upper parts.
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Yoozername
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RE: Hull Down?
I completely disagree with the mechanism of making HD vehciles as easy to hit as vehicles in the open.
The reason for this is that hitting a vehicle means determining its range. Determining the range to a hull down vehicle is very difficult. Especially one using camoflauge also. This is due to the difficulty is guaging either its height or width.
Vehicles like stuG were notoriously difficult to battle for just this reason. They were low to begin with. When they operated from hull down positions, they showed a minimal target and one that was very hard to guage in range. Even if you hit them, they had very tough armor showing.
The reason for this is that hitting a vehicle means determining its range. Determining the range to a hull down vehicle is very difficult. Especially one using camoflauge also. This is due to the difficulty is guaging either its height or width.
Vehicles like stuG were notoriously difficult to battle for just this reason. They were low to begin with. When they operated from hull down positions, they showed a minimal target and one that was very hard to guage in range. Even if you hit them, they had very tough armor showing.
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koiosworks
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RE: Hull Down?
We are not too far off, the process of sighting through the 'obsticle' (short wall, dirt embankment what-have-you) that the tank is hull down behind will add a sighting penalty so the target will be harder to sight.
just once sighted, the chance to hit is not changed, but if a hit location protected by the obsticle is 'hit' then it has much more protection to deflect/absorb the damage.
Thanks!
just once sighted, the chance to hit is not changed, but if a hit location protected by the obsticle is 'hit' then it has much more protection to deflect/absorb the damage.
Thanks!
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Erik Rutins
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RE: Hull Down?
As Kevin noted, they are harder to sight and thus very likely to get off the first shot. Second, to actually hit the vehicle and not just bounce off the obstacle, you have to get through the increased cover value. If you hit 1-7 and bounce off, you've pretty much hit the dirt or wall in front of the tank. The net effect is a much decreased chance of hitting "just the tank".
Regards,
- Erik
Regards,
- Erik
Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC
For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/
Freedom is not Free.
CEO, Matrix Games LLC
For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/
Freedom is not Free.
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Yoozername
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- Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 10:42 pm
RE: Hull Down?
Depends on the situation. A tank in a traditional reverse slope HD position on top of a hill is actually very easy to spot yet it is still not that easy to guage the range too.
For a vehicle hidden in a trashed village with a cord of wood in front of it, it would be very difficult to spot AND guage range to.
By the way, some of the benefits of being HD behind obstructions is that not only will the AP round 'bounce' away. it will actually be diverted in orientation off its path. That is, its nose will not be pointed in the same direction as its flight. It will strike the armor of the tank and present a blunt part of itself instead.
For very hard material, it may actually knock off the cap off the AP round.
For a vehicle hidden in a trashed village with a cord of wood in front of it, it would be very difficult to spot AND guage range to.
By the way, some of the benefits of being HD behind obstructions is that not only will the AP round 'bounce' away. it will actually be diverted in orientation off its path. That is, its nose will not be pointed in the same direction as its flight. It will strike the armor of the tank and present a blunt part of itself instead.
For very hard material, it may actually knock off the cap off the AP round.
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Yoozername
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RE: Hull Down?
WW2 hit probabilities
WO 291/238, The Importance of Gun Dispersion in AP Shooting
AORG report number 256. Theoretical chances of a hit on a 2-ft high target representing a hull-down
tank at 1,000 yards.
Gun Ammunition First shot (visual
range estimation)
First shot
(rangefinder)
Second shot
(corrected)
75mm M3 M61 8% 62% 70%
77mm APCBC 11% 64% 56%
17 pdr APDS 19% 26% 17%
Comments and corrections
These figures are calculated using the gun dispersions determined by trials at Lulworth. Dispersion in
line is effectively neglected. The standard error for visual range estimation is assumed to be 250 yards,
that for the rangefinder 25 yards, an accuracy "corresponding approximately to the service infantry
rangefinder". It is assumed that correction error is twice the laying error. Presumably the worse
performance of the 17 pdr firing APDS is due to the chance of making a false correction, a phenomenon
the paper considers at some length. It says that "…when using a gun known to be inaccurate, if a
rangefinder is in use it is better to repeat rather than correct."
This information shows the major impact that range estimation, combined with small target height, has on first round hit capabilities. A 250m error in range estimation might actually be a maximum. US field manuals call for testing troops within 20% and expecting some to get within 10%. Testing by rexford showed that the German triangle in their sights allowed ranging within 10% or so. But as I said before, estimating range to a hull down target is not that easy.
If I understand this data correctly, they obtained gun dispersion (system precision) and applied range estimation errors and also correction errors. The US 75mm sheman gun is very typical of what a normal AFV gun would produce.
A range estimate within 25m (rangefinder) is for all intents and purposes, the actual range. The funny thing is that the 17 pdr discarding sabot is so sloppy that using a rangefinder and corrections is just chasing your tail.
WO 291/238, The Importance of Gun Dispersion in AP Shooting
AORG report number 256. Theoretical chances of a hit on a 2-ft high target representing a hull-down
tank at 1,000 yards.
Gun Ammunition First shot (visual
range estimation)
First shot
(rangefinder)
Second shot
(corrected)
75mm M3 M61 8% 62% 70%
77mm APCBC 11% 64% 56%
17 pdr APDS 19% 26% 17%
Comments and corrections
These figures are calculated using the gun dispersions determined by trials at Lulworth. Dispersion in
line is effectively neglected. The standard error for visual range estimation is assumed to be 250 yards,
that for the rangefinder 25 yards, an accuracy "corresponding approximately to the service infantry
rangefinder". It is assumed that correction error is twice the laying error. Presumably the worse
performance of the 17 pdr firing APDS is due to the chance of making a false correction, a phenomenon
the paper considers at some length. It says that "…when using a gun known to be inaccurate, if a
rangefinder is in use it is better to repeat rather than correct."
This information shows the major impact that range estimation, combined with small target height, has on first round hit capabilities. A 250m error in range estimation might actually be a maximum. US field manuals call for testing troops within 20% and expecting some to get within 10%. Testing by rexford showed that the German triangle in their sights allowed ranging within 10% or so. But as I said before, estimating range to a hull down target is not that easy.
If I understand this data correctly, they obtained gun dispersion (system precision) and applied range estimation errors and also correction errors. The US 75mm sheman gun is very typical of what a normal AFV gun would produce.
A range estimate within 25m (rangefinder) is for all intents and purposes, the actual range. The funny thing is that the 17 pdr discarding sabot is so sloppy that using a rangefinder and corrections is just chasing your tail.
-
Yoozername
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RE: Hull Down?
WW2 hit probabilities
WO 291/1263, Firing Trials, 17pdr Sherman
"Table VI has been constructed which shows the probability of a hit on a target 5' wide by 2' high
(representing a Panther turret) at various ranges using both types of round."
Range (yards) APC % AP/DS %
400 90.5 56.6
600 73.0 34.2
800 57.3 21.9
1000 45.3 14.9
1500 25.4 7.1
Comments and corrections
These assume that the MPI is placed centrally on the target.
The trace from the AP/DS round was not seen in 73% of cases by a flank observer, and in no case from
inside the tank.
Note: This data is for a known range (no estimation error) and MPI already put on target. Its value is in that it shows that hitting a hull down target is difficult for this HV gun in particular. Throw in some range estimation error (and other smaller errors) and you have a problem.
WO 291/1263, Firing Trials, 17pdr Sherman
"Table VI has been constructed which shows the probability of a hit on a target 5' wide by 2' high
(representing a Panther turret) at various ranges using both types of round."
Range (yards) APC % AP/DS %
400 90.5 56.6
600 73.0 34.2
800 57.3 21.9
1000 45.3 14.9
1500 25.4 7.1
Comments and corrections
These assume that the MPI is placed centrally on the target.
The trace from the AP/DS round was not seen in 73% of cases by a flank observer, and in no case from
inside the tank.
Note: This data is for a known range (no estimation error) and MPI already put on target. Its value is in that it shows that hitting a hull down target is difficult for this HV gun in particular. Throw in some range estimation error (and other smaller errors) and you have a problem.