Missing Engineers and extra weapons?

[Dragoon 45]

I have noticed in some of the OOB's that engineer formations are missing for some of the airborne forces. I.E. there are not any longer any airborne engineers for the US Army, the Germans as far as I know never had any airborne engineers in their OOB's for the game even though each Parachute Division had at least a battalion of airborne qualified engineers originally.

Also the Engineer Company for the US Army disappears after 45 I believe, and the only engineers available are Eng Plts and Mech Engineers. The vast majority of Engineers in the US Army have been motorized not mechanized since before WW II. The US Army deployed brigade size formations (Engineer Groups) of engineers during the war and kept a lot of those formations after the war; and these formations were motorized. Engineers are a very valuable asset and in a lot of cases perform better than regular infantry.

Another point concerns veteran troops. Veteran formations would generally have double to triple the normal authorized amount of automatic weapons. Case in point, some of the infantry Companies of the 45th and 36st ID's in Italy had a MMG in each squad along with 2-3 BAR's. In a lot of cases these additional weapons had been reported destroyed or lost in combat so that additional weapons could be obtained. The same goes for Commo Equipment, veteran formations generally had double to triple the authorized amount which makes Command and Control easier of the formation.

I bring this up for future revisions of the OOB's. Things like these is why I hope eventually the number of slots available in the OOB's are increased along with the number of weapons slots for each unit is increased also.

[Alby]

the US engineers not showing up after is fixed now, altho there are no "airborne engineers".
you can class units either as "airborne" or a type of "Engineer"
not both unfortunately.
of course you can assign Enigineers to airborne formations I suppose.
I dont recall ever seeing anything called "Airborne Engineers" before though?
perhaps my memory is gone..[:(]
There are Also new "Motorized Engineer" formations available now.
I think once you see the newly reworked US Infrantry/ formations/weapons in SPWAW Enhanced
you will be pleasantly surprized
[:)]

[Dragoon 45]

I am waiting on it with baited breath.

In some of the early versions there were US Airborne Engineers. I believe this was around V-3.0 which was where I started playing the game.

ORIGINAL: Alby

the US engineers not showing up after is fixed now, altho there are no "airborne engineers".
you can class units either as "airborne" or a type of "Engineer"
not both unfortunately.
of course you can assign Enigineers to airborne formations I suppose.
I dont recall ever seeing anything called "Airborne Engineers" before though?
perhaps my memory is gone..[:(]
There are Also new "Motorized Engineer" formations available now.
I think once you see the newly reworked US Infrantry/ formations/weapons in SPWAW Enhanced
you will be pleasantly surprized
[:)]

[FlashfyreSP]

Airborne Engineers are no different than regular Engineers; both units have engineer ability, and can be carried/dropped by gliders/transport planes. Having two units that are interchangeable makes no sense given the limited number of Unit Slots.

[Dragoon 45]

I don't agree with the units being the same. Airborne Engineers should get the same +10 that the Airborne Infantry gets. They go through the same airborne training the Airborne Infantry gets and should be considered "elite" forces the same as the Abn Inf. They are trained just like the Abn Infantry to operate in small groups with little or no direction from higher HQ. Their rally and morale should be higher than normal engineers. Elite/airborne status is just as much a mind set as it is training and experience.

In reality the German FJ formations were nothing more than straight leg infantry by 1943. Less than 10% of them had received jump training. But they still kept their name and their elite/airborne status because of morale and unit cohesion. The German Parachute Divisions performed well just about the entire war, it wasn't because of training per se after 1944. It was the units esprit de corps that enabled them to perform as well as they did.

ORIGINAL: FlashfyreSP

Airborne Engineers are no different than regular Engineers; both units have engineer ability, and can be carried/dropped by gliders/transport planes. Having two units that are interchangeable makes no sense given the limited number of Unit Slots.

[azraelck]

I think he meant in game terms. Since this isn't DnD, and you can't dual class or cross class; there can't technically be Airborn Engineers; simply because both the Airborn and engineer are seperate classes. As the Engineers function on the ground much the same; it's best to retain them as 'regular' engineers. It is a limitation of the code; nothing more or less.

[Zardoz]

hm....hi...

only for a slight historical correction.At the end of 1943 a significant derogation of the German army began. However, in 1943 some of the best German divisions were formed, the 1. and the 2. Fallschirmjägerdivisions. The soldiers of these divisions in this time were more or less still all jumped-trained. This is shown in the fact, that the 1. FJD was transported by air to Siciliy and made there an airborne landing. Parts of the 2. FJD took part in airborne operations on Greek islands, f. e. Operation "Leopard", the invasion of Leros.

The derogation of the paratroops really began in 1944 when paradivision were created en masse. However, still the 6. FJR, which was rebuild in 1944 after hevy losses in Russia was jumped trained to 90 % in June 1944. This is also true for the newly created 3. FJD. regaridng the 4. FD, I do not know.

However, clear is that all paradivision starting with 5. FJD, i. e 5. -9., were no longer real Fallschirmjäger units. Neverteheless, I think that there might be a difference with regard to engineers as they need a more detailed training than the ordinary riflemen. Therefore you can discuss whether at least the engineers in the para divisions were still better.

To simulate real Fallschirmpioniere I would take the engineers provided in the game an upgrade morale and experience to elite status. Beginning with mid 1944 you can take the "normal" engineers.

[FlashfyreSP]

I did mean in game terms. With more formation slots, we could add Airborne Engineer platoons and companies and give them the +10 Experience/Morale boost. However, that is all that the game addresses; they would simply be "elite" Engineer units. And since the "elite" bonus system isn't the greatest thing in the first place, since it doesn't provide enough separation in the ratings to make them truly "elite", it does seem a bit redundant at this time.

[Dragoon 45]

I brought this up because in a recent test I airdropped an Engineer Plt into clear terrain along with a Parachute Company. There was no enemy involved. The Infantry units either all rallied right after the drop or on the next turn. The engineer plt was still suppressed on the 3rd turn after the drop.

I would really like to see the slots available in the OOB's expanded by 40-50 or more slots. Or since as in the case of the Germans a lot of their units are in the Czeck or Norwegian OOB's give them and other countries with a large number of different type units an addition OOB set, i.e. one for the SS and FJ, and one for the regular German Army.