Hi guys, i definitely need some advices
In my first PBEM it's 7/14/42 (PDUs on).
Port Moresby is still hold by the Allies.
My opponent has based there lots of 4e bombers that are giving me headache all around New Guinea.
I have Rabaul and Lae (level 4 AF) as my main bases. It's now really difficult to supply and defend Lae because of PM activity and malaria.
Question: is it still possible to take PM at this stage of the war with acceptable losses as Japan?
According to recon, in PM there are 13 units (about 73.000 men). There are 60-70 fighters on cap every day (see picture).
I have two option:
1 - leave Lae and concentrate on Rabaul defence. Units involved in PM invasion will be diverted to Palmyra and Canton Island invasion (less defended).
2 - Try to invade PM from sea.
For option 2, how many units I will need (assuming PM forts as lv 9)?
How many fighters and bombers I will need to shut down PM airfield (lv 8 AF)?
I believe it is too late to take PM, but it's hard to say for sure. I would not leave Lae so quickly. In the smaller Coral Sea and GC scenarios I countered the allied bomber threat from PM by creating more airfields and basing lots of zeros forward to sweep PM. Use Gili Gili, Madang, Buna and the base on the same island, but opposite rabaul. Build them to level 2 or 3 airfields and strafe and bomb PM into submission. PM can be isolated.
In my PBEM, I am currently in the midst of trying to take Port Morseby in June 42. I got the forts with engineers, but it doesn't matter. 3 Divisions and a Brigade are not able to defeat the defenders. I sent the KB and battleships to stop the airfield (500+ allied air loses there over a couple weeks) but I just don't have the troops. Even with the smashed airfield, his transports keep flying in more troops from Australia and my LR CAP doesn't stop nearly all of them. I estimate I need another 4 or 5 Divisions to maybe take it. Thus 8 or 9 total Divisions. The KB must rearm and return to rescue the situation. I don't have a usable base at Lae, which would certainly help (100 Helens might keep the airfield smashed), but its the ground troops that are the real problem for me.
I would be leary of trying to take Canton and Palmyra at this point as well. He should have freed up a large number of ground units by this point in the war and they have to be somewhere. 500+ assault points on those islands would not surprise me.
Its not too late. If your playing stock, you need to conduct a massive pulse against the base and knock out the airfield...then rinse and repeat to keep the base suppressed. Allied may be able to do it far easier with 4E's but Japan can do it too. It just takes enough fighters and bombers. Unless aided by a few timely surface bombardments you have to commit yourself to a massive attritional battle initially to beat down his fighters. However while your doing that your bombers can hit the base @ 6000 feet and start the cycle of diminishing returns as damaged enemy fighters are destroyed.
I did this as late as 7/43 in one game playing as Japan.
you still have fleet intact ???
you have enough BB and CA (28 -32 ships) to keep this airfield almost constantly bombed
together with sth like 200 helens there should be really possible to close airfield for some time and disrupt base greatly
he may be forced to use his CV what would be a desired option as you should have decisive battle as soon as possible
plus I think 4 div is min to start - with good support from eng rgt
with a bit of luck you will eliminate PM and maybe even will fight enemy fleet
IMO, there is no chance. you could sink in 3-4 divisions to try and take it, but something could easily go wrong and then you've essentially trapped those divisions.
as for defending the area, I haven't seen a really effective defense, besides making rabual a fortress and thus stringing him out there for another year. personally I'm liking truk as a nice line in the sand.
You can still take PM IMO but you need to send everything you have, air land and sea to succeed. If you leave PM to fester you'r likely to lose Rabaul early '43. Rabaul is within 4E range of PM and I think P38 can escort. Taking PM will also deny the allies the use of their LBA against you and may avoid you a costly attritional air war there.
Trying to take out the airfield at PM with your bombers just presents your opponent with a juicy target to bomb. As soon as your first raid launches, he follows up next turn with his heavies against your airfield and puts it out of commision. He can do that to every base you have in range and there isn't anything you can do about it. You might down a few bombers but never enough to have any significant impact, not with PDU on.
Also too risky to expose KB and the BBs to those heavy bombers. They'll just get pounded: the carriers will be sunk and the BBs in port for a very long time. Ask me how I know.
Ask yourself this. What are your plans after you take PM? If you're not going to invade Australia, it ain't worth the losses you'll take. Plus the allied player will just take it back at his leisure.
Chez
Ret Navy AWCS (1972-1998)
VP-5, Jacksonville, Fl 1973-78
ASW Ops Center, Rota, Spain 1978-81
VP-40, Mt View, Ca 1981-87
Patrol Wing 10, Mt View, CA 1987-90
ASW Ops Center, Adak, Ak 1990-92
NRD Seattle 1992-96
VP-46, Whidbey Isl, Wa 1996-98
I suggest to take PM. For me it's a non sense to keep Rabaul without holding PM. You will only loose a lot of planes defending Rabaul from 4E bombers coming from PM.
I suggest to take PM. For me it's a non sense to keep Rabaul without holding PM. You will only loose a lot of planes defending Rabaul from 4E bombers coming from PM.
I agree, the only problem is, if you take PM, then PM is in range of 4Es from Cooktown.
I disagree with Chez, you can take PM, but you have to put all you have and be aware that you will probably lose some valuable assets...
But if you don't take it he can start base hoping up northern new Guinea very early...
Thing is, do you have units prepped for PM already ? because his will be 100%...
If you do, you might pull it with 4 divs, combined with bomb run and then airbombardment from Lae...
If you don't, you will need the whole SAA basically, which requires that you deceive long enough that he doesn't realise you are stripping all your perimeter for this push...
without PM salomons are toasted
as well as whole east- north PNG
you can't successfully defend salomons with PDU on enviroment
I see series of daily naval bombardments - than if runway is 70+ dmg move 200+bombers to rabaul and bomb it to hell
use lae and buna to put few additional fighters
do not move KB below 8 range - only use 1-2 daitais to cover naval runs
first runs do with CA groups + Kongos -range 6 gives you chance against any light/naval bombers
it is doable but it is extremaly hard hard and there will be losses
don't worry about cooktown PM is needed as buffer zone
PM is the toughest place for IJN to take. Hit it with a MAJOR strike (include KB if possibel ) and put it out of action and keep it that way. Then bring in those BBs, keep bombarding and follow up with an assault (either overland or a landing - if you can protect a seaborne invasion with CVs). It is not too late IMHO. You can concentrate your force much quicker then the Allies.
It is quite safe, IJN can bomb PM from the north over land then retire to Truk. If the Allies come after me, they will be greeted with 200 Betties from Rabaul.... That is how I won a Guadalcanal scenario PBEM, I lured the Allies into LBA range. Result: 2 allied CVs sunk.
And once PM is put out of action, then you can base Betties at Lae and Milne Bay wich will surely stop any allied efforts to relieve PM. Of course if you cannot keep PM closed, you are in trouble. I think if you can shut down PM in one day, then you are already close to winning the battle, since you can bombard with BBs at leisure. You can set the to Patrol and bombard during the day, just keep plenty of Betties around.
So basically you need a LOT of base forces at Lae, Buna and Milne Bay. Then fly in those army bombers, bring KB and hit PM hard on a clear day.
Taking PM at this point is not worth the losses. I do agree that PM will allow the allied player a major jump off point for an offensive through NG and the Solomons but the time for taking PM has passed. To do so now would invite crippling losses to the fleet and more importantly to his pilots. If you throw everything at PM in an effort to take it and fail, the Solomons and NG are wide open to counterattack. If the attack succeeds, how do you keep it supplied? The amount of supplies required for 4+ divisions is huge.
The allied player by this time has enough heavies in his pool to rapidly replace any aircraft losses. Not to mention that he can more rapidly insert land forces via air or sea transport and the Japanese player has little chance of intercepting them. You simply can not get bogged down in a war of attrition over PM. Its not worth it. You can't hold PM even if you take it.
Sending in a bombardment force simply means that they will have to go in without significant air cover. You can't protect the airfield at Milne Bay and a bombardment force simultaneously. The heavies will always get through no matter how large the CAP. And it takes just one good bombrun with 100+ heavies to suppress the airfield. Now you have an unprotected bombardment force and an unprotected airfield.
Even if the bombardment force manages to get in position to bombard without damage, a smart allied player will position an intercept force south of PM (out of IJN aircraft range) and run them in to PM each night and withdraw. Just a few CAs and DDs can stop the bombardment. Nothing you can do about it. He can do the same when your transports arrive.
Using KB to provide cover means putting KB within range of the heavies, even if they stay north of Buna. Doesn't take many 500lbs bombs to remove KB from the map.
Even with Lae, Buna, Gasmata and Milne Bay in the IJN camp, the difficulties of maintaining an offensive are nearly insurmountable. I took over a game where the previous player had attempted to take PM with 4 divisions, 3 brigades and numerous supporting units (over 20 total units- AV about 2700). The allied player had lvl 9 forts and 2 divisions with several other units. My units became cutoff and every attempt to resupply / evacuate was met with nothing but sunk ships. The heavies and B-25s at PM simply cleaned my clock. I finally had to withdraw to Buna but still couldn't evacuate them from there. I lost nearly 25 transports in the attempt and that was with over 200 fighters at Lae for protection. His heavies hit Lae hard in one raid. Goodbye 200 fighters. He kept every other airfield in range suppressed, including Rabaul. When I tried to supply them by air, the transports were slaughtered. I lost another 200 aircraft just trying to provide CAP for the transport fleet from KB and Gasmata. Those pilot losses will take months to replace.
You would basically have to strip the empire of aircraft to gain enough power to make a dent. Rounding up all those base forces will will take weeks and will certainly reduce your defense elsewhere. The problem is that the allied player doesn't have to put up a huge fight to keep it but you do to take it. He can let you throw yourself on his sword and when the time is right, mount an offensive there or at some place where you have stripped the defenses to bare bone, like the SRA.
In my mind, its just not worth the losses. Lose too many surface units and pilots and its game over. It will take months to replace the pilots and train them. The ships will never be replaced.
Anyways,
Chez
Ret Navy AWCS (1972-1998)
VP-5, Jacksonville, Fl 1973-78
ASW Ops Center, Rota, Spain 1978-81
VP-40, Mt View, Ca 1981-87
Patrol Wing 10, Mt View, CA 1987-90
ASW Ops Center, Adak, Ak 1990-92
NRD Seattle 1992-96
VP-46, Whidbey Isl, Wa 1996-98
Trying to take out the airfield at PM with your bombers just presents your opponent with a juicy target to bomb. As soon as your first raid launches, he follows up next turn with his heavies against your airfield and puts it out of commision. He can do that to every base you have in range and there isn't anything you can do about it. You might down a few bombers but never enough to have any significant impact, not with PDU on.
It can be done, but not from a single AF for the reason you mention. In a slug fest between airfields the Japanese will lose everytime. The Japanese need to disperse their bombers and attack from multiple airfields at once. Preferably this is done after a naval nuke strike.
