First Impressions and Observations

Prepare yourself for a wargaming tour-de-force! Conquest of the Aegean is the next generation of the award-winning and revolutionary Airborne Assault series and it takes brigade to corps-level warfare to a whole new level. Realism and accuracy are the watchwords as this pausable continuous time design allows you to command at any echelon, with smart AI subordinates and an incredibly challenging AI.

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dinsdale
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First Impressions and Observations

Post by dinsdale »

First of all: Dave, Golf, and everyone else associated with the game, congratulations and thanks for producing another stunning game. Not only does it build on the excellent HTTR, but the game plays very differently; a completely new feel to the operations.

There are noticeable improvements to the tactical AI, the user interface and a host of little things which make the game a worthy successor to the last one. It's such a joy to spend most game time thinking instead of clicking. These two are a truly unique experience.

I've had the game since release, but only got time to play over the weekend. I thought I'd write up an AAR for another forum to show off the game's features and mechanics, so I jumped into the Malta scenario as Germany on realistic delay and favouring neither side settings. I have a number of observations;

1) Stragglers. In HTTR, stragglers could be mostly ignored as the scenario carried on. However, with supply routes modeled, leaving 2-3 shattered companies alive can play havoc with transport assets. There are a number of issues here: The first is that there are no orders to "destroy" an enemy formation. Launching attack after attack and adjusting it slightly to overlap the latest sighting of retreating forces is a bit clunky. Secondly, it's exceedingly hard to get units to surrender. After a Regimental sized attack on the Safi and Hal Far airfields area (SE Malta) there are still a number of stragglers following 48 hours of fighting. I even brought a couple of independent pioneers to mop up, but they simply pass through an enemy company causing it to rout and run slightly further away. Of course the problem of stray units shouldn't be a simple one to deal with, but rather than a handful, I'm finding the brunt of a destroyed enemy formation remains intact and wanders the battlefield in perpetuity, often hitting convoys or wandering into victory locations.

IMHO, ideally there would be an "evapouration" type mechanism, where stray companies are removed from the board and reappear as replacements at the nearest base sometime later, but under the current game, is it possible to look at the settings for surrender and consider tweaking them?

2) Flak Batteries
I've found these units to be nearly indestructable.Currently, I have two battalions surrounding one and hardly denting it. My troops appear incapable of overwhelming the defenders and instead dig-in and defend around a flak battery for 10's of hours before they are neutralized.

3) Large Scale Maneuvers
I rarely used full regimental-sized movement or assault orders in the previous game, but I found several situations calling for either a 2-battalion or 3 battalion order to be issued to a regimental HQ. I don't know if this is new, or I never noticed it before, but relatively few enemy units can disrupt a large formation for hours at a time. I've had mixed fortunes in maneuver and assault: those without much enemy fire along the march go quickly, but a couple of companies and some artillery can bring about a complete shutdown as the regiment continually reasseses the situation and suffers orders delay upon orders delay (at least that's how it appears.) I've also been able to do the same to the AI; I blocked an augmented Regiment-sized formation preparing a counter attack with a half battalion of glider troops who happened to get in the way at the right time. The AI made adjustments and continued it's movement, but it lost >12 hours in doing so and the opportunity was lost.

Obviously there's a balancing act between allowing such maneuvers free rein, and blocking them for every mortar platoon which manages to land a couple of shells in the right place, and I was wondering if my experience is common place and intentional, or something else is going on.

4) AI passivity
I know I was fighting the British, but they seemed a bit timid and conservative even for them :) The AI appeared more concerned with stacking defensive forces around objectives, than building a larges scale counter-attack and knocking me off balance. In this particular scenario, I overextended myself early and was ripe for an attack in numerous areas, but the AI was content to watch and defend instead of kicking me in the rear end. While defense is important, a situation where the numbers will eventually be overwhelming requires intelligent use of disruptive attacks.

Later, when the AI did counter-attack, it did so on low casualty setting and quickly retreated when not istantly gaining a breach. Again, this added to the timid/passivity factor.

To repeat, the game is superb, and I could drone on about the great points all day, but I thought it worthwhile bringing these things up in hope of getting other opinions and whether I'm alone in seeing some of this behaviour.
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JudgeDredd
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RE: First Impressions and Observations

Post by JudgeDredd »

Point 2 I noticed also in my Malta campaign...I was attacking a flak unit with a battalion (3 companies, HQ and AT) and time and again my companies were forced to retreat. I noticed no reduction in flak unit size (iirc). I had also bombarded them AND directed several airstrikes to it!!

This was in the Malta campaign with me as Axis. The flak unit was a fixed unit - but still - the intense pressure it was coming under, it would've disintegrated...surely?
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JudgeDredd
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RE: First Impressions and Observations

Post by JudgeDredd »

I tend to agree with the AI passivity as well. I'm on my fourth game and have yet to be beaten (always as Germans with realistic orders delay always). When the AI makes an attack, they do seem to retreat quickly which made me think they were attacking on low aggression or probing...
 
As far as decision making goes, I think the AI seems very capable (I haven't noticed (yet) what was mentioned above about defending rather than mounting an effective offensive because I haven't been in the situation where the AI had that advantage)...so the AI, for me, seems to make the right calls...however, it does seem to take attacking a "bit" lightly.
 
Still a challenging game, although I have yet to be beaten.
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sapper_astro
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RE: First Impressions and Observations

Post by sapper_astro »

Im glad that someone has been playing as the axis....all my games have been as the allies, so being at a disadvantage has been staple for me.

I can assure you that every game I have played, the germans have been quite aggressive....though sometimes a little reckless. I will try out the Greek scenario's with the Italian attackers and see how that goes....
mefi
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RE: First Impressions and Observations

Post by mefi »

Just to say that I've been encountering the same minor glitches as Dinsdale.

1) With the order delay, mopping up stragglers is often an exercise in futility. It becomes very frustrating when they hone in victory locations with the timed point allocation. Not sure what the solution is, but the large infantry formations are especially problematic (ie the artillery units acting as foot) with 200 men holding out for a couple of days against a couple of thousand until eventually they disband or surrender (usually when the 200 has finally been whittled down to a couple of dozen).

2) One such flak battery held out for nearly two days against a full battallion attack by fresh and fully supplied paratroopers. From behind. It seems that their large infantry content and inability to move make for little fortresses.

3) I've noticed this occasionally. It seems to happen when the foremost unit takes a pounding. The AI shuffles unit about ad infinitum until it can get a unit in exactly the right position. This is fine but it is possible to disrupt the AI by just targetting that unit. Order delay mitigates that to an extent but it does mean you can buy lots of time if you can learn to spot that unit when the AI is forming up.

4) Agreed about this. At the very lowest levels, the AI is superb - I'm very impressed by its performance in setting up at up to battallion level. However, its ability to 'read' the wider situation can be a little flawed. It advances well enough against no opposition but put a few units in its way and it will stall before eventually retreating. I'm noticing this especially in the Italy vs Greece scenarios where, playing as the Greeks, the AI just bounces off any delaying force and can easily be channelled into the worst possible advance routes.

I fully appreciate the difficulties in scripting an AI to perform competently but as this game requires online MP (something I do not have the time to do), the AI becomes even more critical in the absence of a human opponent. One other little niggle is that unit histories and commander names often appear in one scenario and not in another. I wish there was a way to batch export such information from one scenario to another or to have it centrally allocated to the unit in etabs but alterable if desired.

Hope this is taken as constructive criticism, as this is a super game and I've had hours of fun already. It's a major achievement to make me set aside every other game to play this one.
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Arjuna
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RE: First Impressions and Observations

Post by Arjuna »

Thanks guys for the feedback.
 
Re Stragglers. Yes this was raised on the war-historical newsgroup as well. As I pointed out there, we could provide a pursue order that continually targeting a specified enemy intel report. This has been on the wish list for a long time. However, this would not be a trivial task. My estimate is a months work to get it behaving realistically in most circumstances. So it's been put on the backburner so far as there have been other more important issues top address.
 
A couple of points to add here. First, remember that each side has a different perspective on how the battle is progressing and where the enemy is and what strength he is in the various areas of the map. So don't assume that an enemy company operating behind what you assume to be your lines is in fact a straggler. They may in fact be trying to probe or take an objective.
 
Secondly, the problem posed by these units to supply lines in the release build will have been diminished by the changes/tweaks I have made to the resupply code for the patch. So I would be interested to review your comments after you have the patch.
 
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Arjuna
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RE: First Impressions and Observations

Post by Arjuna »

Re Flak Batteries. Are you referring to Flak in general or specifically to those fortified static flak units in the Malta scenarios. The latter are tough to take out and rightly so. History is replete with examples of units holding out in forts for many days. If you have examples from elsewhere and have a saved game of the situation, then please send it to me and I'll check it out and see if there is anything untoward going on.
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Arjuna
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RE: First Impressions and Observations

Post by Arjuna »

Re Large Scale Manouvers. I am not surprised that a Regiment was held up by half a battalion if it were defending good defensive terrain. Again the official histories are litered with examples and cases of Bde/Regts beinmg held up by smaller forces, having to call off attacks, bypass to get a better approach and yes it all takes time.
 
However, it's often a balancing act between making the force react reasonably, not too early and not too late or not at all. Perhaps we need to tweak things at the reaction and reassessment levels.
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Arjuna
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RE: First Impressions and Observations

Post by Arjuna »

Re AI Passivity on the Defensive. Good comments about the need for more counter-attacks to disrupt the attacking enemy. This is easier said than done though, from an AI's perspective. I'll take this one on notice and ponder how best to achieve that. Thanks.
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RE: First Impressions and Observations

Post by Arjuna »

Re Unit Histories - copying to other scenarios. Yes this one is on the list already. It just didn't get up the list in time for COTA.
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mefi
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RE: First Impressions and Observations

Post by mefi »

Thanks for the replies Arjuna. For me, I've found the static flak batteries in the Malta scenario particularly irksome. I can accept those in solid fortifications being tough to beat but I don't think (although I could be very wrong :) ) that it applies to my favorite candidates for cursing as they are the ones which are out in the 'open'. I have their locations but I guess that would be bad manners to post as it amounts to a spoiler. The common factor is that they are 'static flak'.

I'll certainly run some more games on Malta to get a decent save which replicates the problem with good reliability. Should I wait until after the patch is released to ensure it isn't related to another issue already fixed?

re. Stragglers. The ones I've noticed have been those I repeatedly beat up. They aren't the AI trying to attack but most definitely units who I eventually have to pin down in the corner of the map and beat up until they vanish otherwise they tend to be the ball in a tennis match between the units guarding the victory locations they tend to gravitate towards when out of rout/retreat status. Great news to hear that you are considering implementing a way to reduce the micromanagement although I did wince when I saw how much work it would take to implement and I appreciate that it's quite far down the 'would be nice' list because of that.

re. copying units. [&o]
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Arjuna
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RE: First Impressions and Observations

Post by Arjuna »

mefi,
 
No please send your saved game now re static flak units. Thanks.
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Fred98
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RE: First Impressions and Observations

Post by Fred98 »

Regarding stragglers. Another solution is that their morale ought to be very low at which time they ought to surrender or else easy to defeat.
 
 
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dinsdale
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RE: First Impressions and Observations

Post by dinsdale »

ORIGINAL: Arjuna
Re Stragglers. Yes this was raised on the war-historical newsgroup as well. As I pointed out there, we could provide a pursue order that continually targeting a specified enemy intel report. This has been on the wish list for a long time. However, this would not be a trivial task. My estimate is a months work to get it behaving realistically in most circumstances. So it's been put on the backburner so far as there have been other more important issues top address.
I understand it's not an easy thing to fix, especially if you consider what pursue really means. Does it mean one unit, all units, how far, how long, etc etc etc.
A couple of points to add here. First, remember that each side has a different perspective on how the battle is progressing and where the enemy is and what strength he is in the various areas of the map. So don't assume that an enemy company operating behind what you assume to be your lines is in fact a straggler. They may in fact be trying to probe or take an objective.
Generally it's after a major assault where a number of other units in the enemy formation have surrendered or run. I think this is seperate from a detached unit with cohesion, as most of these stragglers rout instantly they are engaged again, then recover as they make it outside the attack area, rinse and repeat.
e Flak Batteries. Are you referring to Flak in general or specifically to those fortified static flak units in the Malta scenarios. The latter are tough to take out and rightly so. History is replete with examples of units holding out in forts for many days. If you have examples from elsewhere and have a saved game of the situation, then please send it to me and I'll check it out and see if there is anything untoward going on.
They weren't in any structure but they were listed as static and their estab didn't have transport assets. I didn't notice a fortified position, but I will say that they perform about 100 times tougher than British units dug in on village or fort/church terrain.
Re Large Scale Manouvers. I am not surprised that a Regiment was held up by half a battalion if it were defending good defensive terrain. Again the official histories are litered with examples and cases of Bde/Regts beinmg held up by smaller forces, having to call off attacks, bypass to get a better approach and yes it all takes time.

However, it's often a balancing act between making the force react reasonably, not too early and not too late or not at all. Perhaps we need to tweak things at the reaction and reassessment levels.
Yes, this is something I was curious with, just to know it's a more general thing and not my hideous orders :) The only thing is, the problem can be circumvented somewhat by maneuvering battalions instead of regiments. For example, I seperated a battalion and moved it in the same general direction as a 1 battalion regiment. The former was there about 3x faster.
Re AI Passivity on the Defensive. Good comments about the need for more counter-attacks to disrupt the attacking enemy. This is easier said than done though, from an AI's perspective. I'll take this one on notice and ponder how best to achieve that. Thanks.
Again I imagine the difficulty in balancing between timid, normal, suicidal. IMHO at the moment the defense is a bit too timid, particularly in a scenario where the opposition starts off weakly. In that particular game the British did prepare and launch well positioned attacks (for instance on the flank of a FUP, on a badly defended area west of Qrendi, and they even got behind an attack) but in all cases broke off when encountering minimal resistance from companies positioned as security for a main attack.

Another difficulty with such a decisions is that if I were playing the opposition, I would have seen more units than were defending, for example a counter attack which only faced an Mg and Pioneer unit would have seen the left flank of a regiment forming up and wouldn't necessarily know that those units were headed off in another direction.

So I can't imagine that being an easy situation to improve :)
mefi
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RE: First Impressions and Observations

Post by mefi »

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

mefi,

No please send your saved game now re static flak units. Thanks.

Well, I think I owe you a public apology for this one. I have been unable to replicate the situation consistently outside of the fortified and town area based static flak.

I believe what I was witnessing was a combination of the resupply bug for the supporting artillery (something which I wasn't paying attention to until I discovered the basics ran out in my second game without realising it was also hitting their ammunition supplies as well) and British units disbanding into the static flak providing it with 'reinforcements'. Combined with your fiendishly complex combat engine, that gave me a couple of games where it seemed that the static were super-tough units rather than the odd isolated example of a unit holding out for longer than I would have expected.

Apologies Arjuna. 'Mefi the clueless n00b raises a false alarm' shocker, I'm afraid.
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Hoyt Burrass
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RE: First Impressions and Observations

Post by Hoyt Burrass »

I'm not so sure this is a false alarm...I've seen it too...will try and replicate, and send on to Arjuna

Well Crap, I can't replicate it either...Wolf! Wolf!...Did somebody cry Wolf?
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JudgeDredd
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RE: First Impressions and Observations

Post by JudgeDredd »

LMAO.
 
Strange - because I see the same static unit in the Malta campaign and I attacked it with a regiment and it sat there and time and again my boys retreated...this was with air assault, ground assault and arty...in the end, they did surrender...but all during the attack, I didn't notice ANY movement + or - in their numbers.
 
So there. Dave - I will have a look (it's at work...OOOPS!!) and I will send it (unless I see a wolf along the wat also!!)
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dinsdale
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RE: First Impressions and Observations

Post by dinsdale »

It seems to be the British AA more than anything else. Did the opening of the Aussie invasion and the commandos knock out fortified emplacements very quickly.

Will try the other way around again after the patch.
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RE: First Impressions and Observations

Post by HansBolter »

I have played Maleme several times now and I can attest that the mobile flak in the airfield area are definitely not evidencing the same characteristics you described here for the staic flak in the Malta scenario. The flak on the airfield at Maleme gets overrun pretty quickly.


Oh, and I definitely concur on the need for a "target enemy force" capability as the "target a map reference" order is not dynamic enough to keep pace with a moving enemy target.
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BMD
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RE: First Impressions and Observations

Post by BMD »

One thing I've found useful is to issue the chasing units defend orders with several waypoints. As long as you don't move the last waypoint, you can adjust the intermediate waypoints to follow the straggler without any orders delay. Takes a bit of micromanaging though.

Is there really noone else who's done this?
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