Uber Pilots

[Hard Sarge]

okay, anyone who has played BTR before, will know, some units get a lot of 99 Exe pilots

part of that was in the data base, for what ever reason, the idea I think was to try and get a random number, instead of setting a number for the pilots coming in, but what ended up happening, is they all randomized to 99, not what we really wanted, or they wanted

so, been going though as I can, and reworking most of the Exe levels with in the game

which so saying, my numbers, a Ace is 85, he gets kills or learns something, he will gain numbers, but is not the so called uber
(overall, I believe I only have a few UBER Pilots in the game, the two big boys are 95, and there are a few 90's, but over all, if it is a Ace, he gets 85)

I am reworking BoB, and the British Exp numbers are way low, so I am adding in all the Aces from BoB, or if there already, correcting them to a higher exe number

overall, I am thinking there should be 3 Ubers for the GE side of things, Wick, Galland and Molders (which looking, may have to add in Oesau also)

which these would start at either 90 or 95

for the British, I was planning on having two Ubers, Eric Lock and Josef Frantisek

now part of the hassle, is numbers

if we count the kills these two made, to give them a uber status, then we may want to give the other GE pilots who scored as many kills as they did the same exe level (Lock had 18, Frantisek had 17)

there are 4 more GB pilots with at least 15 kills, if we drop it down to include these, that opens the field up to the GE, to a total of 16 pilots

but, if we stop at 17, then it is 2 GB and 12 GE, or 6 GB and 16 GE, or with what I started with, and 2 and 4


Overall, the GB will have more Aces, but the numbers of kills made by the GE Aces are higher

[captskillet]

overall, I am thinking there sure be 3 Ubers for the GE side of things, Wick, Galland and Molders (which looking, may have to add in Oesau also)

What about Hartman, Rall, Marseille, Nowotny????

[otisabuser2]

Don't think we are going to be able to compare aces on either side on a kill basis alone in this period.

The German kills are against fighters, while the Allied ones are vs fighters and bombers.

The difference being that fighters are far more easier to "kill" when hit than bombers. Spits and Hurricanes came down with simple hits in glycol tanks. Whilst Dornier 17 bombers returned to base after being hosed with hundreds of bullets.

Also remember some of those Germans flew in formations designed purely to get their leader a kill, with the other guys just covering.

Frantisek on the RAF side is unique because he was allowed to go off on his own, and was not a team player. There are suggestions that this enabled him to go after lame ducks rather than steam into formations.

A minefield. [:(]

[Hard Sarge]

I am reworking BoB, and the British Exp numbers are way low, so I am adding in all the Aces from BoB, or if there already, correcting them to a higher exe number

overall, I am thinking there should be 3 Ubers for the GE side of things, Wick, Galland and Molders (which looking, may have to add in Oesau also)

so lets see,
Hartmann wasn't flying yet (first claim was in Nov of 42)
Marseille was with LG/2 and ended with 7 kills (and believe he was shotdown, crashlanded 6 times)
Nowotny was with JG 54 and made his first claim in July of 41
Rall was with JG/52 and had shot down 1 plane before BoB, and none during ? (2nd claim was in june of 41)


Helmut Wick made 42 Claims during BoB (well, claims that were counted as Kills)
Adolf Galland made 35
Walter Oesau made 34
Werner Molders made 28

[Hard Sarge]

Also remember some of those Germans flew in formations designed purely to get their leader a kill, with the other guys just covering.
 
I think this is a cover up by some writers to try and defend there side
 
all air to air formations are designed to get the leader the kill
 
the finger 4, the 2 wingman covers, while the 2 leader get the kill
 
the Vic, the 2 wingman cover, while the leader gets the kill
 
the Rotte, the wingman covers while the leader gets the kill
 
Bong and his wingman in the ETO were mentioned all the time, as being able to change postion during a fight, so both pilots either flew as wingman or leader, depending on what was going on
 
Very few wingmen, really ever got a kill, there job was to make sure the leader was safe and able to fire
 
Marseille, is where I think alot of that idea about the GE flew to let the leader get the kills, but most times, he scored his kills so fast, the rest of the unit was in awe of him, and just sat back and watched
 
interesting idea, I can see the point that a B-17 may of been HARDer to kill then a 51 was, but never really heard many people say the flying pencil was a HARD plane to bring down before
 
(will agree, many came back shot full of holes, but many fighters returned with there coolent shot out too)
 
funny, most would say the GE had the HARDer battle to fight, as all the planes they were up against were fighters, while the GB had it easy, if they made it though the fighters, they had nothing but sitting ducks
 
 
It is often mentioned that Frantisek's excellent results were due to his lack of discipline in the air. He often left the formation and hunted for the enemy on his own. He also waited over the Channel for returning German planes, who were often flying without ammo, with limited fuel, sometimes damaged, and with tired crews. This was a usual tactic for Allied pilots, but only after completing all mission objectives. After Polish pilot mission briefings, Frantisek often disapeared from 303rd formations just after take-off. Despite higher command warnings, for Frantisek lone-wolf missions were like drugs - and his number of kills grew quickly. As the squadron leader, Witold Urbanowicz was facing an almost insoluble dilemma: either discipline Frantisek (which he attempted several times without success), or have him transferred at the expense of losing squadron pride.
Urbanowicz dealt with this cunningly: unofficially declaring Frantisek a squadron guest, which was acceptable due to his Czech origin. The Poles called his tactics "metoda Frantiszka" (method of Frantisek) while the British spoke of the lone wolf tactics. It is by no means true that Frantisek gained all his victories in individual actions - many kills were scored in group missions.
 
 
 

[Hard Sarge]

hmmm

Archibald A. McKellar

from the one list I am looking at, it shows him with 15 kills, but I have seen him with 20 and Aces High has him with maybe 22, so he should also be added in a GB Uber

ooops, thinking too much, forgot, the list I am working off of is only for kills during BoB, kills before hand would not be shown (but still looks like 18 or 19 kills during BoB)

[otisabuser2]

Also remember some of those Germans flew in formations designed purely to get their leader a kill, with the other guys just covering.

I think this is a cover up by some writers to try and defend there side

Maybe, but my mention of this was made from reading accounts by Luftwaffe pilots in this period themselves.

interesting idea, I can see the point that a B-17 may of been HARDer to kill then a 51 was, but never really heard many people say the flying pencil was a HARD plane to bring down before

Would you like me to quote some sources or post some pics ?

[Hard Sarge]

and that would prove what ?
 
every pic you can show of a heavy damaged plane make it back to base, we can find one of light damage knocking it down, for every single hit kill on a Spitfire (fighter) we can find many that show massive damage to the plane and it returned
 
(all it takes to knock down any plane is one bullet, the hassle is in finding that one bullet to hit the right spot, some planes may get hit a 100 times or more, but that one bullet never hit the right spot)
 
Luck of the draw
 
some pilots flew into the ground and bounced and flew home with a bent prop, others crashed as soon as they hit or right after
 
early war, the GB were also known to of had there wing guns set at too far a range, and if you watch the films, alot of pilots opened fire before they were even close to being within range, the good pilots who got close and hit what they aimmed at, knocked them down
 
besides, the 8 gun wing, was designed with the idea of knocking bombers down

[otisabuser2]

Yep,

I'm not disputing you are raising some additional good points there. The cannons in German aircraft did far more damage to the RAF planes than the British mg ammo did to their bombers.

Also the German fighter armament was commended for being more centrally located in the plane and more easy to target.

every pic you can show of a heavy damaged plane make it back to base, we can find one of light damage knocking it down, for every single hit kill on a Spitfire (fighter) we can find many that show massive damage to the plane and it returned

No. I'm not disputing that damage is all relative or a matter of chance. I just beleive the Dorniers were capable of absorbing far more mg damage than a Spitfire or Hurricane.

If you can find one pic of a Spit or Hurricane that flew back to base with 300 or more bullet holes in it, I would be surprised ! Remember these Dorniers returned all the way to France after receiving so much damage.

[wernerpruckner]

German top pilots during BoB:

Oblt. Helmut Wick
42 kills
I./JG 2


Maj. Adolf "Dolfo" Galland
35 kills
III./JG 26, Stab JG 26


Hptm. Walter Oesau
34 kills
III./JG 51


Maj. Werner "Vati" Mölders
28 kills
Stab JG 51


Oblt. Hermann-Friedrich Joppien
26 kills
I./JG 51


Oblt. Herbert Ihlefeld
24 kills
I./LG 2


Hptm. Gerhard Schöpfel
23 kills
III./JG 26


Ofw. Siegfried "Wurm" Schnell
18 kills
II./JG 2


Hptm. Horst "Jacob" Tietzen
18 kills
II./JG 51


Oblt. Hans "Assi" Hahn
17 kills
III./JG 2


Lt. Erich Schmidt
17 kills
III./JG 53


Hptm. Heinz Bretnütz
16 kills
II./JG 53


Ofw. Werner Machold
16 kills
I./JG 2


Oblt. Arnold Lignitz
15 kills
I./JG 51


Oblt. Hans Philipp
15 kills
II./JG 54


Oblt. Hans-Ekkehard Bob
14 kills
III./JG 54


Maj. Karl-Heinz Leesemann
14 kills
I./JG 52


Oblt. Joachim Müncheberg
14 kills
III./JG 26


Oblt. Josef "Pips" Priller
14 kills
II./JG 51


Oblt. Heinz Ebeling
13 kills
III./JG 26


Maj. Erich Groth
13 kills
II./ZG 76


Hptm. Hans-Karl Mayer
13 kills
I./JG 53


Oblt. Hans-Joachim Jabs
12 kills
II./ZG 76


Hptm. Hans Wiggers
12 kills
I./JG 51


Oblt. Helmut Bennemann
11 kills
I./JG 52


Oblt. Erich Hohagen
11 kills
II./JG 51


Oblt. Gustav Sprick
11 kills
III./JG 26


Fw. Heinz Bär
10 kills
I./JG 51


Oblt. Kurt Brändle
10 kills
II./JG 53


Oblt. Josef "Joschko" Fözö
10 kills
II./JG 51


Hptm. Dietrich Hrabak
10 kills
II./JG 54


Lt. Rolf Kaldrack
10 kills
III./ZG 76


Oblt. Karl-Heinz Krahl
10 kills
I./JG 2


Lt. Erich Leie
10 kills
Stab JG 2


Oblt. Gustav Rödel
10 kills
II./JG 27


Ofw. Erich Rudorffer
10 kills
I./JG 2


Fw. Walter Scherer
10 kills
III./ZG 26


Lt. Heinz Tornow
10 kills
II./JG 51


Lt. Eduard Tratt
10 kills
I./Erp.Gr. 210


Hptm. Wolf-Dietrich Wilcke
10 kills
III./JG 53

[Hard Sarge]

Yes Daddy, I got the list, you want the one of the GB pilots ?
 
besides, your list has some pilots that got there kills after the BoB
 
Leie scored 8 of his kills in Nov of 40, but only 3 during the battle
 
(there was fighting going on after the battle, but the battle was seen as being over by then)
 
I like Fozo, hope he didn't have hairy feet ?
 
 

[Hard Sarge]

No. I'm not disputing that damage is all relative or a matter of chance. I just beleive the Dorniers were capable of absorbing far more mg damage than a Spitfire or Hurricane.
If you can find one pic of a Spit or Hurricane that flew back to base with 300 or more bullet holes in it, I would be surprised ! Remember these Dorniers returned all the way to France after receiving so much damage.
 
I am not saying Canes or Spits made it back with 300 holes in them, but there are many pic's of the cannon damage done to them
 
there is a shot of a Helldiver that had most of it's outer wing blown off, and it flew back and landed on it's CV, nobody around it, could believe it was still flying, let alone made it down to land
 
a P-51 hit a Telephone pole and flew back with the other wing section gone
 
then there is that B-17 that the 109 flew into, the plane is all but cut in half, in fact, the plane landed, rolled to a stop, and then broke
 
but those are still the extremes, not the norms
 
 
BUT
 
lets get back to the point, should we have all Aces set to one Exp number or should we have a Few of the Uber pilots set up ?
 
 

[Hard Sarge]

and for what it is worth, I have added/corrected 76 GB Aces and 35 GE Pilots (not all were Aces)
 
 

[Hard Sarge]

Hmmmmm
anyone ever notice that Molders is spelled wrong in the game ?
 
hmmm, I wonder if Htpm J. Foezoe is suppost to be Josef Fozo ?
 
well it it wasn't, it is now
 
 

[Hard Sarge]

 
Hptm. Wolf-Dietrich Wilcke
10 kills
III./JG 53
 
????
 
hmmm, I got Hans-Dietrich Wilcke, the game also has W.D. Wilcke
 
time to do some looking
 
 
Hmmmm, kill claims show it as Wolf ? wonder were they got Hans from, oh well
 
oh well, I like Wolf-Dietrich better anyway
 

[otisabuser2]

hmmm, I wonder if Htpm J. Foezoe is suppost to be Josef Fozo ?

I remember this from my German at school. This has to do with the German "o" with umlauts above it ( two dots ), to explain the different emphasis on this kind of "o". It is sometimes also written as "oe".

Or something like that.

[Hard Sarge]

Roger, that may be
 
I really dislike that B, that stands for SS
 
hmmm, that may be part of the Molders mispelling too
 
Great more things I got to look for, bad enough the pilots are in the wrong Gruppen and most have the wrong first names
 
hmmm, wonder if that is why Heinz Bar shows up so much as Heinz Baer

[mikemike]

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

Roger, that may be

I really dislike that B, that stands for SS

hmmm, that may be part of the Molders mispelling too

Great more things I got to look for, bad enough the pilots are in the wrong Gruppen and most have the wrong first names

hmmm, wonder if that is why Heinz Bar shows up so much as Heinz Baer

Good guess, it´s Heinz Bär and Werner Mölders (with umlauts, if the software should kill them). As umlauts will frequently appear in German names, you ought to make sure that German names will be shown in the correct spelling in the game.

BTW, just to confuse you, the letter ß (which is the only letter in the German alphabet without an uppercase form) is called a "sharp S" or "SZ" in German. In earlier times, it was even sometimes written as sz. According to the latest German Spelling Reform, it should now only appear after long vowels, and is replaced by "ss" after short vowels. Hope this helps!

[mikemike]

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge


lets get back to the point, should we have all Aces set to one Exp number or should we have a Few of the Uber pilots set up ?

I think you should give the highest scorers more exp points than the "common" aces. There´s a difference between people who score maybe six kills and those with twenty or more. The top scorers will operate on levels of aircraft handling, shooting and situational awareness that won´t usually be accessible to "common" aces, and this should be reflected in skill ratings. You might even take earlier and later kills into account, since the pilots concerned will have this special talent or aptitude even if it did not result in large numbers of kills during the BoB.

As for the thorny question of comparing scores, I just want to say that RAF pilots operated in a target-rich environment, with few tactical restraints, while for Luftwaffe fighter pilots, until the advent of the Duxford Wing, RAF fighters appeared in penny packets, and for most of the BoB, they were tightly restrained tactically to do close bomber escort and nothing else, certainly not "freie Jagd" (free hunting). To score a kill, you first have to find a target.

[Hard Sarge]

thanks for the spelling lesson
 
yea, knew about the B/SS, didn't know it could also be SZ
 
well there are hassles and pro and cons on the Exp system
 
some people do not believe the pilots should have exp based on the total number of kills, until they get them, others, if you where to get them, you should be able to
 
another hassle is we are on a 0-99 based system, and 50 and above is something I can assign, below 50, the program, tends to just add it onto a base number
 
so, 50-60 should be Trained, 60 to 70 or so, good pilots, with a kill, maybe two, 70 to 80, 2 or more kills but not a Ace
 
85 a Ace
 
to be honest, that does not really give us much room for the higher scorers
 
I really don't want to get into saying a 85 is 5 kills and a 87 is 8 kills
 
in the game, you score a kill, you may pick up a point or more of Exp, you can learn 3 points of Exp, with out scoreing a kill !
 
but, I agree, scoreing 20 or more kills in a short time, is more then scoring 5
 
over all, damned if you do and damned if you don't