Assuming they could also refuel at sea in that weather, it's possible they could have waited a bit longer but they were also on a hard deadline to support the scheduled Rabaul invasion, which required them to replenish in Japan and then reach Truk by mid-Jan. It didn't leave a lot of spare time.

KB were ordered to attack Midway but they couldn't because of the bad weather.

I can't say whether the capture of Midway before the end of 1941 would have made Yamamoto's Xmas list but the atoll certainly was already of interest to him immediately after PH.

On Dec 9th he ordered KB to attack Midway before returning to Japan. It's uncertain whether he hoped the attack might ...

Effectively you've just been telling us to take your word for it because you've convinced yourself it will all work. But given how you've just made so much of an assumption about the USS Enterprise and yet got it completely wrong, there is no reason for anyone to accept any of the other ...

That would only happen if Maui was under alert. In that case, you could bet that Oahu was under alert. So, as I've stated before, that would be a benefit of the plan: The raid would be aborted by the pathfinders and not run into an alerted Pearl. Could never have happened under the ...

The whole training area of Maui represented one big radio net, second only to Oahu. Being a key training area for the Pacific Fleet's light forces and submarines, there would likely be USN ships already off Maui (as there were on Dec 7th) equipped with 3" and 5" AA guns and they would carry live ...

warspite1 wrote: Tue Dec 13, 2022 4:12 am Move along people, nothing to see.

About that time too I feel. Unless parts of the Japanese plan start getting detailed, I think maybe the wind-up should be finally wound-down.

Does anyone know what is supposed to happen to KB's attack if the APDs have to abort their landing on Maui? Does KB still go ahead? We really need an index.


That would only happen if Maui was under alert. In that case, you could bet that Oahu was under alert. So, as I've stated before, that ...

I've got a critical factor to be covered. What's going to stop the Bettys and Zeros being shot down by ship-board AA as they attempt to make their landing run on Puunene. There were multiple ships with 3" and 5" AA batteries off Maui when the PH strike began. More ships arrived there that ...

Again, the only data point we have is the one in which the Enterprise sailed into Pearl with 2/3rds of it aircraft on board.

I think you mean the only data point you have.

No. It's the only data point anyone has.

Nope. Just you until you start giving us the requested KB strike details ...

warspite1 wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 3:56 pm Make of those three comments what you can.

Thanks. Probably explains why I didn't remember any specific mention of what would happen.

And yet......

- you can’t tell us where the Japanese will land
- you therefore have no idea where the airfield and port is in relation to the landing zone
- you have no idea of the terrain to be traversed
- you have no idea of the cover that the area surrounding the invasion beach affords ...

And yet......

- you can’t tell us where the Japanese will land
- you therefore have no idea where the airfield and port is in relation to the landing zone
- you have no idea of the terrain to be traversed
- you have no idea of the cover that the area surrounding the invasion beach affords
- you ...

Since The Plan leaves Mac's USAFFE free to complete their full mobilization and deploy where they wish using their large numbers of inter-island transports, the Japanese would also need to use more battalions than historical (two) to ensure they hold Mindanao (Davao) and Mindoro against whatever ...

Again, the only data point we have is the one in which the Enterprise sailed into Pearl with 2/3rds of it aircraft on board.

I think you mean the only data point you have.

I don't care what the "SOP" was. What matters is how tightly they followed it.

They followed it "tightly" enough that ...

It's a somewhat odd situation. With some extra tankers the APDs would have probably made it at least across the North Pacific using the historical timeline but the historical planners likely wouldn't have considered sending them in the first place as they didn't know the weather was going to so ...

Another extract from Combined Fleet.

4 December 1941: (Hawaii Time):
N Pacific. Weather conditions worsen. Rough seas cause the Striking Force's destroyers to roll up to 45 degrees. Refueling is cancelled.

So again, if true (and I have no reason to doubt this comment) to add to Nagumo’s ...

A question for Pearl Harbor experts please.

I read this on the Combined Fleet website. Never heard this before and don’t know whether this is reliable or not. Does anyone know if this is true?

Quite clearly if the Japanese had serious concerns to this extent about even being able to refuel, then ...

Luzon:
2 - You are using 6 battalions in your Maui and Midway invasions. That represents roughly 1/3 of the land forces assigned to attack Luzon. 2 of the battalions will be lost at Maui, and the other 4 stranded and starving on Midway. How do you plan to replace these forces?

Since The Plan ...

matt3916 wrote: Sun Dec 11, 2022 1:15 am I think the troll is winning.

My therapist suggested I needed to engage more online as it would help me conquer my fear of crossing over bridges.