Motherland in Flames (Axis) Rosencrantus (Soviet) HLYA

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: Seminole

Paint.net is great freeware to manipulate image files. I really appreciate the layer tool for stitching together maps.

No pockets in the south? How many mountain division does that leave you with?


Edited to add: hotkey ‘y’ to flip to unit names for AAR shots.
I play with combat CV showing, but screenshots with unit names showing are nice for keeping track of enemy mech formations.

Thank you for the input with paint.net

No pockets & all mountain divisions are safe.

Of course I haven't done my turn yet other than take snapshots so some of the Mountain divisions may not be able to walk/run fast enough. Will have to see when I get back into the game.

[Q-Ball]

I don't like that opening for the Axis. It looks like he blew away all the border formations, but that means alot of fighting and not as much pocketing.

AGS is particularly bad.....I don't see any units pocketed in the South, and a clear path for you to withdraw the quality formations south of Lvov....there's even an intact rail line, so you can rail alot of units out of there, particularly the Mountain Units which are very useful long-term and you can't build more of.

Getting Rovno is nice, but a better idea is clearing the line through Proskurov, which is easy to do T-1. The terrain around Rovno is much better for defense, and pushing directly east doesn't buy him much

[Beethoven1]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I don't like that opening for the Axis. It looks like he blew away all the border formations, but that means alot of fighting and not as much pocketing.

AGS is particularly bad.....I don't see any units pocketed in the South, and a clear path for you to withdraw the quality formations south of Lvov....there's even an intact rail line, so you can rail alot of units out of there, particularly the Mountain Units which are very useful long-term and you can't build more of.

Getting Rovno is nice, but a better idea is clearing the line through Proskurov, which is easy to do T-1. The terrain around Rovno is much better for defense, and pushing directly east doesn't buy him much

I am inclined to agree. I could be wrong, but I definitely think HLYA's openings in his other games were better.

Soviets should be able to rail quite a lot out from the south, and anything that they can't rail out they can simply transfer to reserves. Unless Soviets make a mistake, there should be pretty close to 0 divisions eliminated in the south on T2/3 (other than a few divisions that were routed on T1 and don't have MP to escape and can't rail out or transfer to reserves since they are unready/routed).

My guess is HLYA is going for Kiev and then north towards Kursk and on to Moscow or something. I guess we'll find out.

Likewise in the north/center, the advance is not as far (not even across the Berezina river in the center and barely across the Daugava in the north). That gives JubJub a lot of room and extra time to set up defenses, which could slow things down in the early turns if he can do things right.

[freeboy]

out of curiosity why lock hq ?

[Q-Ball]

ORIGINAL: freeboy

out of curiosity why lock hq ?

If you don't lock HQ, you basically hand support-unit distribution decisions to the AI. You don't want to do that.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I don't like that opening for the Axis. It looks like he blew away all the border formations, but that means alot of fighting and not as much pocketing.

AGS is particularly bad.....I don't see any units pocketed in the South, and a clear path for you to withdraw the quality formations south of Lvov....there's even an intact rail line, so you can rail alot of units out of there, particularly the Mountain Units which are very useful long-term and you can't build more of.

Getting Rovno is nice, but a better idea is clearing the line through Proskurov, which is easy to do T-1. The terrain around Rovno is much better for defense, and pushing directly east doesn't buy him much

I agree with you. I would personally surround some units. Now on the flip side of things I personally don't think anything in the South should be able to move by rail or be disbanded. But that is just me. Have I disbanded units in the south before, of course, but in my opinion the disband unit function is too liberal in use and should be farther than the front then now allowed.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: Beethoven1

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I don't like that opening for the Axis. It looks like he blew away all the border formations, but that means alot of fighting and not as much pocketing.

AGS is particularly bad.....I don't see any units pocketed in the South, and a clear path for you to withdraw the quality formations south of Lvov....there's even an intact rail line, so you can rail alot of units out of there, particularly the Mountain Units which are very useful long-term and you can't build more of.

Getting Rovno is nice, but a better idea is clearing the line through Proskurov, which is easy to do T-1. The terrain around Rovno is much better for defense, and pushing directly east doesn't buy him much

I am inclined to agree. I could be wrong, but I definitely think HLYA's openings in his other games were better.

Soviets should be able to rail quite a lot out from the south, and anything that they can't rail out they can simply transfer to reserves. Unless Soviets make a mistake, there should be pretty close to 0 divisions eliminated in the south on T2/3 (other than a few divisions that were routed on T1 and don't have MP to escape and can't rail out or transfer to reserves since they are unready/routed).

My guess is HLYA is going for Kiev and then north towards Kursk and on to Moscow or something. I guess we'll find out.

Likewise in the north/center, the advance is not as far (not even across the Berezina river in the center and barely across the Daugava in the north). That gives JubJub a lot of room and extra time to set up defenses, which could slow things down in the early turns if he can do things right.

Well, I am the Soviets in this game You may be referring to my other game here which I am playing Germans & have yet to post my opening moves

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5054724

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

ORIGINAL: freeboy

out of curiosity why lock hq ?

If you don't lock HQ, you basically hand support-unit distribution decisions to the AI. You don't want to do that.

I will unlock HQs on the first turn anyway if my opponent wants locked HQ's. This will get all my support units to Stavka(and OKH as Germans). The next turn, or turn 3 at the latest, I turn it off & lock HQ's with all support units there. I will then cherry pick my SU's based on front usage of where I am attacking or defending. This isn't for everyone but that is how I do it.

[Beethoven1]

Ah yes, I got confused between the two threads, sorry!

I agree it is too easy to disband/transfer to reserve units. However, I am of mixed minds on whether Soviets should do it, because even when they do it, VPs in the south still basically always fall earlier than historical. I have yet to see a single AAR where Germany has failed to take e.g. Odessa and Kiev way before they historically fell, except for one or two where the Germany player was new and didn't know what they were doing and totally flopped everywhere from the get-go.

So I think, at least until that is hopefully eventually fixed, it is ok for Soviets to rescue troops from the south that realistically they probably should not be able to. But ideally, it should be harder to transfer/disband/rail out, but combine that with some changes that make it possible to delay a competent Axis player more in the south.

[Rosencrantus]

This opening in the South worked pretty well for me in my other game. I'm testing it again this game.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: Rosencrantus

This opening in the South worked pretty well for me in my other game. I'm testing it again this game.

Great Nothing wrong with that at all.

[Rosencrantus]

I genuinely believe right now that while pocketing is important in this game, the benefits to routing is also really useful. While there is a unit left behind that can ZOC, it is extremely weak until it is given replacements. Doing this will clog up the soviet supply network. If they are sent back to the reserve to fully reinforce that will take multiple turns and the unit will have low experience, forcing you to leave it in the reserve box to train it up or send it to the front, taking up rail capacity and becoming a free meal for my units. Pocketing ties up units and in the open spaces of the south where lines can get stretched, I need to keep my units concentrated and every turn there has to be damage dealt and threats the Soviet player must respond to.

Edit: grammar errors.

[Seminole]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Thank you for the input with paint.net

No pockets & all mountain divisions are safe.

Embarrassment of riches. I'm jealous.

[Seminole]

ORIGINAL: Rosencrantus

I genuinely believe right now that while pocketing is important in this game, the benefits to routing is also really useful. While there is a unit left behind that can ZOC, it is extremely weak until it is given replacements. Doing this will clog up the soviet supply network. If they are sent back to the reserve to fully reinforce that will take multiple turns and the unit will have low experience, forcing you to leave it in the reserve box to train it up or send it to the front, taking up rail capacity and becoming a free meal for my units. Pocketing ties up units and in the open spaces of the south where lines can get stretched, I need to keep my units concentrated and every turn there has to be damage dealt and threats the Soviet player must respond to.

Edit: grammar errors.

I think the opening few weeks 'get there the furth'est with the most'est' is the order of the day, but mountain divisions and just the opportunity to pin an enormous number of map counters still make the Lvov Pocket the scariest opening to me. You can't get back the mountain divisions, and they can be stout hardpoint defenders in '41, as well as invaluable in operational blizzard plans.
Agree, especially in the south, that Russia routed units early on are their own worst enemy. 8 MP and can't rail, just bounced around until pocketed because they can't outrun panzers on the steppes. But those mtn divisions...

[Rosencrantus]

Hahahahahaha that is too funny man. I didn't know soviet mountain divisions were that good but even then going for a Lvov pocket means you can't route the soviet units near the Romanian border the next turn and allow the early deployment of the Southwestern Front. So I wouldn't take that deal honestly. It also seems from an AAR that I saw that tried going for a Lvov pocket that the pocket is practically guaranteed to get opened up during the Soviets turn so that is also a lot of wasted campaigning time.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: Rosencrantus

I genuinely believe right now that while pocketing is important in this game, the benefits to routing is also really useful. While there is a unit left behind that can ZOC, it is extremely weak until it is given replacements. Doing this will clog up the soviet supply network. If they are sent back to the reserve to fully reinforce that will take multiple turns and the unit will have low experience, forcing you to leave it in the reserve box to train it up or send it to the front, taking up rail capacity and becoming a free meal for my units. Pocketing ties up units and in the open spaces of the south where lines can get stretched, I need to keep my units concentrated and every turn there has to be damage dealt and threats the Soviet player must respond to.

Edit: grammar errors.

Yup, both tactics are viable with the scale tilted towards surrounding units in my opinion.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Seminole

ORIGINAL: Rosencrantus

I genuinely believe right now that while pocketing is important in this game, the benefits to routing is also really useful. While there is a unit left behind that can ZOC, it is extremely weak until it is given replacements. Doing this will clog up the soviet supply network. If they are sent back to the reserve to fully reinforce that will take multiple turns and the unit will have low experience, forcing you to leave it in the reserve box to train it up or send it to the front, taking up rail capacity and becoming a free meal for my units. Pocketing ties up units and in the open spaces of the south where lines can get stretched, I need to keep my units concentrated and every turn there has to be damage dealt and threats the Soviet player must respond to.

Edit: grammar errors.

... and they can be stout hardpoint defenders in '41, as well as invaluable in operational blizzard plans.
...

2 bits on release I would have agreed with Rosencrantus' analysis, I now think that pockets are more important, its all about limiting the size of the Red Army come the autumn/winter/spring 1942

Seminole - why do you think that mtn divisions are better in the blizzard turns? Is that something from WiTE1 but because they have no particular advantages in snow etc in WiTE2

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: Rosencrantus

Hahahahahaha that is too funny man. I didn't know soviet mountain divisions were that good but even then going for a Lvov pocket means you can't route the soviet units near the Romanian border the next turn and allow the early deployment of the Southwestern Front. So I wouldn't take that deal honestly. It also seems from an AAR that I saw that tried going for a Lvov pocket that the pocket is practically guaranteed to get opened up during the Soviets turn so that is also a lot of wasted campaigning time.

Mountain Divisions are a nice grab with high morale for the Germans. It isnt the end of the game if not gotten, just means you will have to deal with them later on if they manage to escape.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: Seminole

ORIGINAL: Rosencrantus

I genuinely believe right now that while pocketing is important in this game, the benefits to routing is also really useful. While there is a unit left behind that can ZOC, it is extremely weak until it is given replacements. Doing this will clog up the soviet supply network. If they are sent back to the reserve to fully reinforce that will take multiple turns and the unit will have low experience, forcing you to leave it in the reserve box to train it up or send it to the front, taking up rail capacity and becoming a free meal for my units. Pocketing ties up units and in the open spaces of the south where lines can get stretched, I need to keep my units concentrated and every turn there has to be damage dealt and threats the Soviet player must respond to.

Edit: grammar errors.

I think the opening few weeks 'get there the furth'est with the most'est' is the order of the day, but mountain divisions and just the opportunity to pin an enormous number of map counters still make the Lvov Pocket the scariest opening to me. You can't get back the mountain divisions, and they can be stout hardpoint defenders in '41, as well as invaluable in operational blizzard plans.
Agree, especially in the south, that Russia routed units early on are their own worst enemy. 8 MP and can't rail, just bounced around until pocketed because they can't outrun panzers on the steppes. But those mtn divisions...

Hehehehe, Seminole on the WARPATH for some "Mountain" units. Wonder what mountains he be wanting? ;-P

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: loki100

ORIGINAL: Seminole

ORIGINAL: Rosencrantus

I genuinely believe right now that while pocketing is important in this game, the benefits to routing is also really useful. While there is a unit left behind that can ZOC, it is extremely weak until it is given replacements. Doing this will clog up the soviet supply network. If they are sent back to the reserve to fully reinforce that will take multiple turns and the unit will have low experience, forcing you to leave it in the reserve box to train it up or send it to the front, taking up rail capacity and becoming a free meal for my units. Pocketing ties up units and in the open spaces of the south where lines can get stretched, I need to keep my units concentrated and every turn there has to be damage dealt and threats the Soviet player must respond to.

Edit: grammar errors.

... and they can be stout hardpoint defenders in '41, as well as invaluable in operational blizzard plans.
...

2 bits on release I would have agreed with Rosencrantus' analysis, I now think that pockets are more important, its all about limiting the size of the Red Army come the autumn/winter/spring 1942

Seminole - why do you think that mtn divisions are better in the blizzard turns? Is that something from WiTE1 but because they have no particular advantages in snow etc in WiTE2

Loki on the WARPATH to debunk WITE1 items carried over to WITE2.

Mtn Division have better Morale