Models of Naval Combat

Gary Grigsby's strategic level wargame covering the entire War in the Pacific from 1941 to 1945 or beyond.

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Fishbed
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RE: Models of Naval Combat

Post by Fishbed »

Extreme BS answer,do you actually beign there to know that or you read that "fact" on combinedfleet.com
Is reading a "fact" in the Osprey volume about UK WW2 Battlecruisers receivable too? Because it doesn't strenghten your position neither, sorry to say so...

here is the official RN report about the loss of the Hood - extracts can be seen there: http://www.hmshood.org.uk/reference/off ... to144.html
Conclusions

We conclude

(1) That the sinking of Hood was due to a hit from Bismarck's 15-inch shell in or adjacent to Hood's 4-inch or 15-inch magazines, causing them all to explode and wreck the after part of the ship. The probability is that the 4-inch magazines exploded first.
(2) There is no conclusive evidence that one or two torpedo warheads detonated or exploded simultaneously with the magazines, or at any other time, but the possibility cannot be entirely excluded. We consider that if they had done so their effect would not have been so disastrous as to cause the immediate destruction of the ship, and on the whole, we are of the opinion that they did not.
(3) That the fire that was seen on Hood's Boat Deck, and in which UP and/or 4-inch ammunition was certainly involved, was not the cause of her loss.

Note nowadays conclusions are a little different, here an exemple of counter-expertise
http://www.warship.org/no21987.htm
Probable Cause:
The exact origin of the explosion is now, and shall probably always remain, somewhat in doubt. An examination of the actual testimony of witnesses shows that although a preponderance felt that the explosion came from forward of Hood's mainmast, this opinion was by no means universal. Statistically, about 42% saw the explosion as originating forward of the mainmast, 16% saw it originating at the mainmast, and 21% either saw it originating aft of the mainmast or someplace else entirely. Some witnesses associated the explosion with a fall of shot from Bismarck, but, as we have seen, a very significant proportion did not.
Given the conflicting and confusing evidence that has been presented, is there nonetheless a "most probable" explanation for the loss of Hood that reconciles the observations of witnesses with the geometry of the ship, and with the course of the action? I believe there is. The first significant bit of evidence is that to most witnesses the blast was essentially noiseless, or at least lacking a noticeable "bang." The "bang" of an explosion is caused by the creation of a supersonic shockwave, and is necessarily absent when burning occurs, even very rapid burning indeed. The noiselessness of the explosion constitutes strong circumstantial evidence that the fatal blast was caused not by the detonation of Hood's shells or torpedoes but by the more or less rapid combustion of her propellants. It is probably no coincidence that a very similar noiselessness was associated with the explosion of USS Arizona's propellant magazines at Pearl Harbor. This conclusion is in accordance with the findings of the original boards. Assuming that a shell or shells from Bismarck precipitated the disaster, this also explains the short delay that witnesses noted between the arrival of Bismarck's fatal salvo and the first evidence of the blast, and may in fact explain why many did not causally connect the two events. The burning rate of typical gun propellant is closely related to the surrounding pressure and temperature, and except in a very tightly enclosed space - such as the breech of a gun - take a considerable time to "build up steam." In fact, if venting is adequate, most gun propellants are surprisingly hard to ignite and unspectacular in their combustion.

In the absence of any other possible energy source, like the boards, I have concluded that it is most probable that Hood was relatively slowly rent apart over a period of perhaps a second by the uncontrolled burning of the propellants in her after magazines. Although the actual position of the hit and the subsequent path of the projectile through the ship are problematical, it is clear that there are several routes by which one of Bismarck's 380mm shells might have reached the after magazines. Again, like the boards, I have also concluded that the most probable cause of the final blast was a hit from a single 380mm projectile from Bismarck.

The general consensus of witnesses was that the explosion seemed to originate in the vicinity of the mainmast, some distance forward of the after magazines. The orthographic diagram shows that there is one place where a shell falling slightly short could have passed through the after engine room and detonated in or near the magazines located immediately adjacent to its after bulkhead at station 280. Yet another possibility is that it passed through the 178mm belt before detonating in essentially the same place. If this occurred, and ignition of the propellant in the magazines followed from it, then a large part of the rapidly expanding gas bubble would have taken the path of least resistance and vented into the engineering spaces immediately forward of this area. For a time the sheer inertia of Hood's structure would have slowed expansion in any other direction. Once the expanding gasses had reached the engine rooms, the quickest exits to the outside would have been the series of massive exhaust vents located on the centerline immediately forward and aft of the mainmast. These huge ducts, changing in size and shape as they rose through the ship ended in roughly square vents 1.8 meters on a side on the boat deck. It was as spectacular, near-vertical columns of flame from these vents near the mainmast, foreshortened to observers on surrounding ships, that the explosion first became visible. Shortly thereafter, the entire stern of the ship exploded.90

At the time of the blast, the Boards of inquiry calculated the "X" 15-in magazine contained about 49 tons of cordite, "Y" magazine contained 45 tons, and the 4-in magazines contained about 18.5 tons. The uncontrolled burning of this quantity of propellant in the after magazines might have slowed briefly as the volume of the engineering spaces served as a space into which the gasses could expand, and as the vents directed much of the combustion products outboard. But although this expansion and venting could temporarily relieve the pressure, it could never be enough to prevent an explosion from eventually tearing the ship apart.91 Ironically, the chemical energy stored in the battlecruiser's after magazines - enough to lift her enemy over a kilometer in the air had it been employed to do so - had instead destroyed the Hood herself.
Are these new "FACTS" from this "source" objective enough this time about the lucky shoot thesis? The Hood was a BC, its deck armor was this of a BC, and therefore ok, let's say there is no lucky shoot thing, you're right: it was a BC, and died like any BC would die in front of a BB: he blew up after a diving salvo in the face, and maybe a little earlier than other because he was unlucky enough to get hit at the wrong place. That surely doesn't make the Bismarck able to tear the Iowa or the Yamato apart with three salvoes by the way [:D]

Berkut
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RE: Models of Naval Combat

Post by Berkut »

ORIGINAL: el cid again
Like the fact that the Bismark had no radar controleld fire control,

It may be a matter of terminology, but as a radar technician (later engineer), I must say this statement appears false on its face. German radar is not the same as our (later) radar - so direct comparison is not possible. But German radar was PRIMARILY focused on tactical issues - including tactical rangefinding for targeting purposes. This was the big unknown. Optical equipment produces superior bearing but inferior range. Radar - even today - produces superior range but inferior bearing.
The German idea was probably SUPERIOR to ours! Anyway, when designed, it was clearly superior to the radar we didn't have yet. Since it was used for gunnery control - and compromised to optimize for that - I regard the above statement as misleading and false. Bismarck and Prinz Eugen each had two radars - each with 180 degrees of coverage (forward or aft arc). The forward radar on the Prinz was out, so Bismark was leading - to insure full coverage - and it mattered because it confused the British - who assumed the similar looking ships would be in a more standard formation. That error also probably meant they used the wrong ship lengths and generated self imposed range errors. Meanwhile, Bismarck used radar for the range and clearly got it right. And so did the Prinz - which scored as well.

My point was simply that their fire control radar was range only, they could not point the gun. Which I thought I said, rather clearly.

mdiehl
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RE: Models of Naval Combat

Post by mdiehl »

Yes and let us add that while optics were better at obtaining a bearing, by, say, 1944 that were not much better. US BBs were obtaining range and bearing on their shell splashes at Surigao Strait, with range estimates that were far more precise than anything Bismarck could have obtained even had Bismarck lived until 1944.

Also, at close range the US 16"/45 and 16"/50 had the energy to penetrate any armor on the Bismarck, so while it is true that Bismarck was at her worst disadvantage fighting a potential NC, SoDak or Iowa at long range, she was not much better off at close range. Her AP caps are still badly affected by the US STS outer plates, and the 16" can still hole Bismarck's armor (especially easy in the guns). Since the 16" shell has a lot more explosive than the Bismarck's 15" the advantage still goes to any US 16" armed ship.

Now to give credit where it is due. I think in 1941 Bismarck vs USS North Carolina would have been a much more even fight than vs any other US "modern" BB. In 1941 Bismarck's optical and radar system was probably a little better than North Carolina's. So if Bismarck obtains some lucky hits at long range she can disable NC's fire control directors or damage a turret... and effect that would force NC to retire, in my opinion.

In 1942 against a SoDak the odds favor the US at most ranges, although again I think if Bismarck got lucky she could force a SoDak to retire. Indeed, given the vulnerability of rangefinders and the like any BB of the day could force any other BB of the day to retire (mission killed) even if it was incapable of penetrating the armor of their enemy in a critical way. Had Hood for example scored the first lucky hit it could have ruined Bismarck's range finding, and that would have radically shifted the advantage to Hood.

Assuming any US or UK BB meets Bismarck (or Tirpitz) in 1944 the affair would be brutally one sided in favor of the Allies. In these engagements the Allies would have had precise range information before the first shot was fired, and bearing estimates with radar were "good enough."
Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?
HMSWarspite
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RE: Models of Naval Combat

Post by HMSWarspite »

ORIGINAL: hawker

I can defend myself with ease String[;)].
About chasing Bismarck,she is not chased by all Brittish fleet,with how many ships she is chased,40,50,60. All that ships for that piece of scrap. According to "i know best" Mrdiehl, Rodney is enough to catch and sink Bismarck.
FACT is,Brittish was forced to move entire Home fleet wherever Tirpitz moves.WHY,that is only piece of scrap. Did Churchill go crazy and assign so many ships for the junk like Tirpitz.
Are you suggesting that the RN should have used less than the maximum possible force whenever the opportunity arises. Please can I play against you, please please. [:)]
Some folks spoke about Iowa radar range finders. Well,Bismarck would have those radar range finders in 1943,also she (if survived) will have AAA much better in 1943.
Radar, unfortunately, does not alter the fundamental design flaws in Bismarck - her armour lay out was inefficient, and she was weak for her size
FACT IS:Never in history of warfare so many ships is assign to catch only one ship. WHY???
Becasue they could. You can search oceans faster and catch ships better if you actually use your ships to do it! Next question.

Oh and BTW, I think you will find that Graf Spee attracted pretty much the same sort of hunt (less KGV etc not commisioned yet). This is presumably because Churchill was terrified of her as well?
FACT IS:RN was so scared of Tirpitz that they keep major part of Home fleet in ports which are close to Tirpitz. WHY??
I'm sorry, was WW2 some sort of chivalric contest where we were meant to turn up with equal numbers of ships? Think I missed that bit of history at school!
FACT IS:Hood is sunk in six minutes with Bismarck poor guns from 18000 yards. How is that possible??Lucky hit? I dont think so.
You dont give me any facts (except offense from some people).

Please read what is written, and consider that you are trying to turn a ship into some sort of holy idol. No one has said that Bismarck didn't have powerful guns - more than powerful enough to ruin Hood's day, even without a lucky hit (she would have been lucky not to have had to haul off after a few hits at that range, possibly only 1-2). However, her 15" were not world class. Thats all. Hood's armour wasn't world class (even in 1919!). PoW/KGV guns weren't world class, Yamato fire control wasn't either. (etc etc)

Please do not take what is said in this forum personally. There are a lot of knowledgable people here (myself not included), and there are a lot of studies of naval history/shipbuilding. Don't take our word - read some books (a range, not just 1!)
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hawker
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RE: Models of Naval Combat

Post by hawker »

Are you suggesting that the RN should have used less than the maximum possible force whenever the opportunity arises. Please can I play against you, please please.

Just send me e-mail on hawker_gb@yahoo.com if you wish to play,i will silence you on the battlefield.[;)]
What if I did? Combinedfleet is considered an excellent and reliable source of data - more importantly, unlike yourself, it is an *objective* source of data, where the author has not particualr desire to "prove* that his favorite hunk of metal is TEHBESTESTEVER!!!!

I never say that Bismarck is best ever my young padawan.[;)]

Too many words,way too few facts.
I am not axis fanboy as someone says earlier,i just want good debate and prove something with facts.So far no one proves that i am wrong,and except offends no one provide me real facts.
Eh,James Cameron and Robert Ballard only wastes their time to find that piece of scrap,ships like KGV and Rodney is well known because of that junk ship etc,etc.....


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mdiehl
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RE: Models of Naval Combat

Post by mdiehl »

A.
I am not axis fanboy as someone says earlier,i just want good debate and prove something with facts.
vs B.
So far no one proves that i am wrong,and except offends no one provide me real facts.

The problem here, Hawker, is that lots of people have confronted your argument with very well established facts and cogent analysis. You simply refuse to acknowledge them. Initially in this thread you claimed that Bismarck was better than any other BB ever made. Then you backed down to "except for the heavies." In the meantime it remains a demonstrated fact that even the US SoDaks (which were built to treaty standards) had thicker armor, better armor, bigger guns, with better projectile designs. So if you maintain that Bismarck was 'as good as anything except Iowa and Yamato' -- which seems to be your current opinion -- you ought at least to articulate a set of standards by which a comparison can be made.

Nate Okun and Tony Tully's comparison at combinedfleet.com has the virtues of (1) actually presenting facts for the ships being compared, (2) articulating a set of standards by which the facts could be judged, and (3) therefore being rebuttable if you or anyone else can demonstrate that their reasoning is flawed or that their facts are wrong.

No one is being convinced by your argument because so far you haven't adequately rebutted their analysis nor have you articulated some other or improved standard for comparing the ships. Their (Tully's/Okun's) analysis is a cogently argued analysis based on facts. In contrast, your claims are an assertion of faith.

And you might be an axis fanboy if your only debate strategy is to constantly complain that the opposition has not endeavored to reason with you logically or failed to offer substantive rebuttal, when in fact numerous people have on numerous occasions offered universally established facts that do not favor Bismarck in a head to head comparison with at least four other BB designs (Yamato, Iowa, SoDak, and Richelieu).
Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?
HMSWarspite
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RE: Models of Naval Combat

Post by HMSWarspite »

ORIGINAL: hawker

Too many words,way too few facts.
I am not axis fanboy as someone says earlier,i just want good debate and prove something with facts.So far no one proves that i am wrong,and except offends no one provide me real facts.
Eh,James Cameron and Robert Ballard only wastes their time to find that piece of scrap,ships like KGV and Rodney is well known because of that junk ship etc,etc.....


Your 'facts' are not relevant. People have pointed you to the (definitive?) discussion on BB comparisons on the web, and you don't seem to read it. We have tried to produce real facts, and you wont listen.

Your final point is exactly what I mean...exactly how do you even think that Cameron and Ballard do anything other than look at/for famous ship wrecks? What have Titanic, Bismarck, Hood, Lusitania etc got in common? Thats right, they are well known, they sank, and no one had visited them much if at all! They are not expressing opinion as to their merit you know!
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hawker
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RE: Models of Naval Combat

Post by hawker »

Your 'facts' are not relevant. People have pointed you to the (definitive?) discussion on BB comparisons on the web, and you don't seem to read it. We have tried to produce real facts, and you wont listen.

Your final point is exactly what I mean...exactly how do you even think that Cameron and Ballard do anything other than look at/for famous ship wrecks? What have Titanic, Bismarck, Hood, Lusitania etc got in common? Thats right, they are well known, they sank, and no one had visited them much if at all! They are not expressing opinion as to their merit you know!

Oh god,you completely get all wrong
If you read this thread you will see that i want to keep with facts from RL and not "what if". So,battle of Denmark straigt and later chase for Bismarck,not other tricky things like "what if".
I start this discussion with fact how many hits Bismarck get in her final battle and suddenly folks start to talk about construction flaws,poor gunnery,they talking of "how much money she cost",lucky hit on Hood,malfuncionts on POW,Iowas,Yamatos,radars etc.
ONLY FACT IS:Bismarck fought well in battle of Denmark strait against stronger opponents. Later,she was cripled and sunk by overhelming force.
That is ONLY fact.
So stop talking about "what if". That debate could only go one-sided,i think this,you think that. Lets hook with facts.
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mdiehl
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RE: Models of Naval Combat

Post by mdiehl »

Well, then, your argument is reduced to "The Bismarck was better than the Hood, the only ship that Bismarck ever defeated in combat, although she needed Prinz Eugen's help to do it."

Very well. I agree.
Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?
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hawker
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RE: Models of Naval Combat

Post by hawker »

Well, then, your argument is reduced to "The Bismarck was better than the Hood, the only ship that Bismarck ever defeated in combat, although she needed Prinz Eugen's help to do it."

Very well. I agree.

Bismarck defeated Hood and POW.
Prinz Eugen help,dont make me laugh.
Bismarck disperse joint forces of Hood and POW,maybe its painfull but you cant beat that fact.
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hawker
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RE: Models of Naval Combat

Post by hawker »

Well, then, your argument is reduced to "The Bismarck was better than the Hood, the only ship that Bismarck ever defeated in combat, although she needed Prinz Eugen's help to do it."

Very well. I agree.

You can argue with me only in "what ifs" situations and when we came to facts,like Denmark strait,you have no argument except:lucky hit,malfunctions etc...
Maybe NLO sink Hood.[:D]
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mdiehl
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RE: Models of Naval Combat

Post by mdiehl »

Bismarck defeated Hood and POW.


Nope. Bismarck ran from Hood after Hood repaired her guns and moved to follow.
Prinz Eugen help,dont make me laugh.

Its as valid a claim as your assertion that overwhelming force was "required" to defeat Bismarck. You seem to think the mere presence of a ship equates with "required to defeat" so I was merely applying your standards to that engagement.
Bismarck disperse joint forces of Hood and POW,maybe its painfull but you cant beat that fact.


I think you have a word challenge here. Bismarck (probably) sank Hood. OK. I'll even accept that Bismarck "dispersed" Hood. Prince of Wales withdrew to repair her guns, several of which had malfunctioned. While Prince of Wales repaired, Bismarck ran like a scared little bunny. Prince of Wales then followed. If Bismarck had been so superior she'd have turned to engage Prince of Wales. As you are fond of noting, Bismarck was faster than Prince, so Prince of Wales would have had to accept that engagement.

(And yes, to the rest of you, I am deliberately parodying Hawker's style of reasoning.)

So let's see. (Continuing in Hawker parody mode).

Bismarck and Prinz Eugen are superior to Hood.
Prince of Wales is better than both Bismarck and Prinz combined.
One Fairey is superior to Bismarck.
Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?
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hawker
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RE: Models of Naval Combat

Post by hawker »


I think you have a word challenge here. Bismarck (probably) sank Hood. OK. I'll even accept that Bismarck "dispersed" Hood. Prince of Wales withdrew to repair her guns, several of which had malfunctioned. While Prince of Wales repaired, Bismarck ran like a scared little bunny. Prince of Wales then followed. If Bismarck had been so superior she'd have turned to engage Prince of Wales. As you are fond of noting, Bismarck was faster than Prince, so Prince of Wales would have had to accept that engagement.

(And yes, to the rest of you, I am deliberately parodying Hawker's style of reasoning.)

So let's see. (Continuing in Hawker parody mode).

Bismarck and Prinz Eugen are superior to Hood.
Prince of Wales is better than both Bismarck and Prinz combined.

As someone says,"i consider myself clever,because of that i am in minority here".
I think i spell that right,if not probably Mr "all-knowing" Diehl will fix that.
You just dont know known facts.
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spence
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RE: Models of Naval Combat

Post by spence »

I really have to say that the very best part of this thread is the story about Oscar the Cat...[8D]
Fishbed
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RE: Models of Naval Combat

Post by Fishbed »

Oh god,you completely get all wrong
Bismarck defeated Hood and POW.
Prinz Eugen help,dont make me laugh.
Bismarck disperse joint forces of Hood and POW,maybe its painfull but you cant beat that fact.
You just dont know known facts.

Man, you're just boring... Now I suppose it is the last time many people here will ever take the risk to talk with you about warships again... [8|]
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hawker
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RE: Models of Naval Combat

Post by hawker »

Man, you're just boring... Now I suppose it is the last time many people here will ever take the risk to talk with you about warships again...

I will be pleased to exclude ignorants in that matter[;)].
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el cid again
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RE: Models of Naval Combat

Post by el cid again »

My point was simply that their fire control radar was range only, they could not point the gun. Which I thought I said, rather clearly.

But what is the point of your point? Why is it a criticism? It is the best system in the world at the time, probably. It is certainly functional - even in battle conditions. And most of all it makes your statement false. It IS "radar controled fire control." It is patantly false to say otherwise. It produces a result wholly different in quality from purely optical fire control.

And you have missed MY point: OUR system which you seem to regard as "proper radar fire control" is probably NOT as good with the early radars we used. Radar is not good at bearing measurement even now.
And battleship optics were very very good at it.

el cid again
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RE: Models of Naval Combat

Post by el cid again »

Prinz Eugen help,dont make me laugh.

I am a big fan of the Prinz - and her proudest moment is during this action - when she beats up on KGV - and inflicts significant damage. This is a bit unusual for a CA against a modern battleship. If you are laughing, you are the ignorant (and anti-German) one.
Berkut
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RE: Models of Naval Combat

Post by Berkut »

ORIGINAL: el cid again
My point was simply that their fire control radar was range only, they could not point the gun. Which I thought I said, rather clearly.

But what is the point of your point? Why is it a criticism? It is the best system in the world at the time, probably. It is certainly functional - even in battle conditions. And most of all it makes your statement false. It IS "radar controled fire control." It is patantly false to say otherwise. It produces a result wholly different in quality from purely optical fire control.

And you have missed MY point: OUR system which you seem to regard as "proper radar fire control" is probably NOT as good with the early radars we used. Radar is not good at bearing measurement even now.
And battleship optics were very very good at it.


Any optical system requires light, and hence no matter how good it is when the visibility is adequate, it is not going to work as well at night, in weather, or over the visible horizon.

My point is simply that when you compare the Bismark to other ships that could and did fire their guns without optical sighting, that is a ding against her, since she could not. Perhaps if she had survived until 1944 the Germans would have fitted her with that kind of radar, perhaps not. Who knows?

Honestly, I am no expert at this stuff, just going by what combinedfleet has to say on the subject. If you have a beef with that analysis, take it up with them.
mdiehl
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RE: Models of Naval Combat

Post by mdiehl »

I am a big fan of the Prinz - and her proudest moment is during this action - when she beats up on KGV - and inflicts significant damage.

I agree. Prinz is an impressive ship. Give here real AAA and she'd have been one of the better cruisers of the war. Of course she beat up on Prince of Wales not KGV. So that's not so impressive. Fighting a BB that can only get one barrel working in a salvo must be as proud a moment as knocking down an old lady.

Bismarck: the greatest BB ever to sink an overgunned cruiser and run from an unarmed battleship. Whoopdeedoo.
Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?
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