Beating the AI

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Good Grief Herwin, who p1ssed in your Corn Flakes this morning?

You can quibble all you like. I'm just telling you the way it works in WitP. I'm not saying I agree with the way it works. But that -is- the way it works.

If you don't like it. Take a number.

-F-

I'm a professional systems modeler--that's what my PhD is about. I play games to understand complex systems, which makes me rather demanding--fiddling an experiment to gain a desired outcome is a no-no. I'll run the current scenario until the US carriers get into a fight with the KB. I have a lot of background, know the doctrine, and know the history. If the outcome is fiddled, I'll know.

Actually, the engagements so far haven't been that far wrong. I'm trying to attrite the good Japanese carrier pilots gradually. That *may* work.

[keeferon01]

ORIGINAL: herwin

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Good Grief Herwin, who p1ssed in your Corn Flakes this morning?

You can quibble all you like. I'm just telling you the way it works in WitP. I'm not saying I agree with the way it works. But that -is- the way it works.

If you don't like it. Take a number.

-F-

I'm a professional systems modeler--that's what my PhD is about. I play games to understand complex systems, which makes me rather demanding--fiddling an experiment to gain a desired outcome is a no-no. I'll run the current scenario until the US carriers get into a fight with the KB. I have a lot of background, know the doctrine, and know the history. If the outcome is fiddled, I'll know.

Actually, the engagements so far haven't been that far wrong. I'm trying to attrite the good Japanese carrier pilots gradually. That *may* work.

wow harry , you have got to be the most mba phd tnted dhled etc etc. guy I have ever seen using these forums, cant you design a new AI model that works.

[Feinder]

Well, at least we know he has the ego to run with the Big Dawgs.

Welcome aboard.

[;)]

-F-

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: Ron James

ORIGINAL: herwin

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Good Grief Herwin, who p1ssed in your Corn Flakes this morning?

You can quibble all you like. I'm just telling you the way it works in WitP. I'm not saying I agree with the way it works. But that -is- the way it works.

If you don't like it. Take a number.

-F-

I'm a professional systems modeler--that's what my PhD is about. I play games to understand complex systems, which makes me rather demanding--fiddling an experiment to gain a desired outcome is a no-no. I'll run the current scenario until the US carriers get into a fight with the KB. I have a lot of background, know the doctrine, and know the history. If the outcome is fiddled, I'll know.

Actually, the engagements so far haven't been that far wrong. I'm trying to attrite the good Japanese carrier pilots gradually. That *may* work.

wow harry , you have got to be the most mba phd tnted dhled etc etc. guy I have ever seen using these forums, cant you design a new AI model that works.

Those labels are hardly meaningful here 8). I *would* like to design an AI model that works, but that turns out to be very hard. I have a suspicion we'll never succeed in building a strong AI from silicon. Digital computers work in a discrete space, but brains deal with a continuous world, and the ability to select from a continuous set of actions is needed. We may find that the only way we can build a truly intelligent machine is by combining digital and biological intelligence.

[herwin]

OK, I'm a month into a 1.795 campaign. I'm playing to force the Japanese (AI) player to pay real cash for anything it wants, but I'm also avoiding getting overextended or trapped. The Lexington is raiding the Northern Marshalls to cover a resupply convoy to Wake, while the Saratoga and Enterprise are lurking around Rabaul staying just out of range of Truk. The Eastern Fleet evacuated Singapore and is based in Colombo with a big forward base at Sabang that contains forces evacuated from Malaya. Singapore just fell, while Manila, Clark, Bataan, and Naga are holding out in the Philippines.

The Allied forward line of bases is Mandalay (large forward base)-Akyab-Sabang (large forward base)-Palembang-Sinkawang-Tarakan-Menado-Port Moresby-Rabaul (large forward base)-Shortlands-Tulagi-Nanomea-Baker-Johnston-Midway-Wake-Dutch Harbor.

The Japanese forward line of bases is Rangoon (major)-Singapore (major)-Kuching-Philippines-Palau-Truk-Kavieng-Marshalls-Paramushiro Jima.

The KB (~4 carriers) has just been spotted south of Davao. It can go wherever it wants as long as it pays cash.

Ship losses so far reported are balanced: 27 Allied (1 CL) and 28 Japanese (2CL and 2DD). (I suspect some other Japanese ships have been lost.) The Allies have 3800+ base points, while the Japanese have 1800+. Allied troop loss points are almost 2900, but that goes without saying. Reported air losses are 528 Allied and 319 Japanese. Key loss figures include:

Buffalo: 47
F4F3: 28
SBD: 34
TBD: 0
P40B: 90
P40E: 29
Wirraway: 66

A6M2: 56
Ki-21: 24
Ki-27: 26
Val: 8
Kate: 12
Nell: 14
Betty: 59

Comments?

[madflava13]

Sounds good so far... How's your B-17 strength?

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: madflava13

Sounds good so far... How's your B-17 strength?

I've lost 5 B-17Cs and 6 B-17Es. The 19th BG has 14 B-17Cs operational and is based in Wyndham. The 93rd BG is in Menado, but has only 1 of 16 B-17Es operational--it has been giving the IJN a rather hard time in that area. The 39th BG is in Pearl.

[bigT74]

I think your plans for the carriers are solid.

Well, I had great luck using my CV's to destroy AK's, AP's and their escorts. I am playing a campaign against a human and against the computer (second one was for practice). In fact, my carriers never launched against anything larger than a CA (except the British carriers, which paid the price).

I found that this worked better against the human opponent. The AI really didn't seem to care and keeps throwing wave after wave after me.

[Tom Hunter]

herwin,

I have enjoyed your posts these last few days (and Hawkers vis-a-vis the Bismark but for different reasons [:D] )

I also tend to look at the game as understanding and mastery of a complex system. I also write long AARs with a fair amount of numerical detail you might enjoy reading them some.

As far as the game goes Fiender is right on the money. The game design does not come close to providing historical outcomes from historical actions. It can be enjoyable to play, especially in the time period between start and figuring out that the engine is a mess of fantasy and spagetti code cleverly designed to look llike a historical simulation. After that it can still be fun Vs. a human opponent. But it has serious problems and given that you worked with Nathan Okun those problems are going to bother you a lot.

They bother me too, and though I am in two games that I am enjoying I doubt I will start any others.

For data go to Lunacy in the Pacific, or my games Vs. a guy named Blackwatch. The Blackwatch games are nolonger active but I was trying to figure out the game at the time and did a fair amount of analysis. For fun read Fear and Loathing in the Pacific.


Finally, welcome aboard

[pcasey]

My (admittedly limited) experience with the AI is that it plays a "script" which sort of matches history and then has some alternate scenarios it pulls out of it thinks its winning. If you see transports heading to Shortlands in early 1942, you can assume, "oh this is the take the islands up to Lunga" script, or if you see a transport flotilla heading for Raboul in, say, January, its they "here's the invasion of Raboul" script. Or if you see shipping in the Indian ocean, it's probably the "amphibious assault on Akyab because I'm winning" script.

So if you know the history, you can usually outfox the AI e.g. the Raboul invasion is usually small and w/o carrier cover, so the Australian cruisers with some rinky-dink air cover out of Raboul can usually maul it.

Alternately, the AI seems to be bad at A) mass invasions or B) keeping the KB out of sight. So if it's sailing KB around the DEI, it's a good time to sortie on Tarawa or one of the gilberts. In my experience, any island with at least a division on it is safe from the AI unless you do something monumentally unwise (like lose all you carriers). Reading through human AARs, I'm sure an isolated division is just pure PP for the IJN player, but against the computer, it works well.

And, of course, there's always the big stick; mass bomber raids against his airfields. Seems like by far the best way to fight the Japanese airforce is on the ground.

[herwin]

Took a look--interesting.

I've got something going on that I don't quite understand--the AI is trying some things. First, there's an opposed river crossing at Mandalay. I have air superiority and outnumber him, so I'm interested in seeing how much the game cheats. Second, it's trying to land in Sumatra. I have large surface fleets in range in both directions and air cover, so I suspect it's shark feeding time. Third, the KB is coming down the Makassar Strait. I have massive air on both sides and my surface forces have already cut out. Fourth, it's trying to sneak a landing in the Shortlands. Halsey noticed and reacted, and there's a surface fleet in the hex it's headed for. Should be interesting.

[bradfordkay]

You'll generally find that the KB is more than equal to RNEIAF and its allies. When the KB sweeps through the Java Sea (as a trip from Davao through the Makassar Strait indicates), it usually leaves a few sunken Dutch cruisers and a lot of destroyed allied aircraft in its wake. Occassionally the allied air forces will get a lucky hit or two, but the KB does a good job at reducing the allied defenses all on its own.

Oh, at Mandalay the Jap AI will slowly keep bringing in troops as they are freed from other duties. If you can hold Mandalay it will be because you turned it into a Stalingrad. I have always had a hard time keeping it, as supplies don't reach it easily from the Indian ports. The Japanese will bring in a tremendous number of bombers to start hammering your air forces at Mandalay (and they'll go after your supply TFs at Chittagong as well). It's usually a fun fight.

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

You'll generally find that the KB is more than equal to RNEIAF and its allies. When the KB sweeps through the Java Sea (as a trip from Davao through the Makassar Strait indicates), it usually leaves a few sunken Dutch cruisers and a lot of destroyed allied aircraft in its wake. Occassionally the allied air forces will get a lucky hit or two, but the KB does a good job at reducing the allied defenses all on its own.

Actually, the KB appears to have reversed course. In any case the Allied ships are gone and the air units are waiting. My goal is to attrite the Japanese carrier pilots.

Oh, at Mandalay the Jap AI will slowly keep bringing in troops as they are freed from other duties. If you can hold Mandalay it will be because you turned it into a Stalingrad. I have always had a hard time keeping it, as supplies don't reach it easily from the Indian ports. The Japanese will bring in a tremendous number of bombers to start hammering your air forces at Mandalay (and they'll go after your supply TFs at Chittagong as well). It's usually a fun fight.

I'm actually planning to retreat to the Indian border if the AI pressures me. There are nine Chinese divisions on the Salween. I'm happy for the AI to be concentrating on a Burmese sideshow.

[Feinder]

Just wait until KB runs out of gas. I had an AI game way back when. It was -REALLY- quiet, for over two months. KB was mostly intact, and I was actually seeking it out. For the life of me, I couldn't find it, and was systemically stomping Japan's ill-gotten gains.

I finally gave up, and swithed sides.

I foud KB near the western map-edge past Broome, out of gas, and making full speed for wherever the west map-edge would take you.

-F-

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Just wait until KB runs out of gas. I had an AI game way back when. It was -REALLY- quiet, for over two months. KB was mostly intact, and I was actually seeking it out. For the life of me, I couldn't find it, and was systemically stomping Japan's ill-gotten gains.

I finally gave up, and swithed sides.

I foud KB near the western map-edge past Broome, out of gas, and making full speed for wherever the west map-edge would take you.

-F-

Oh, my...

The Pearl Harbor raid was done on a real shoestring. You're suggesting the AI wouldn't wake up to the danger and might chase the US Fleet off the end of the world...

[Feinder]

They were chasing dolphins for all I know. They were -way- west of Broome, but they certainly weren't chasing MY ships.

-F-

[Oliver Heindorf]

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Good Grief Herwin, who p1ssed in your Corn Flakes this morning?

You can quibble all you like. I'm just telling you the way it works in WitP. I'm not saying I agree with the way it works. But that -is- the way it works.

If you don't like it. Take a number.

-F-

exactly.

welcome aboard [:)]