Models of Naval Combat

[akdreemer]

ORIGINAL: herwin

ORIGINAL: hawker

They are no slow firing Herwin,take a look above

I did. BB rate of fire was a function of the loading arrangements in the magazine and turret and whether the guns had to come to a fixed angle for loading, at least according to some material I read thirty years ago. The Bismarck could sustain 2 rpm, which was comparable with other European navies and inferior to American performance in the new battleships (about 2.5 rpm). The Yamato could sustain about 1.5 rpm. The improved US performance reflected a careful redesign during the 1930s. WWI American designs averaged 1.5, starting at 2 rpm early in the engagement and dropping to 1 rpm as shells had to be tarbuckled longer and longer distances.

You are only partially correct here. The other half of the rate of fire deals with range, flight time of shells, and the speed in which subsequent fire control arrangments cand be made an executed. If it takes 50 seconds before your shells land due to range then your effective rate of fire is much less. It does no good to fire at something if you do not know where you last shots were. Examine the Bismark/Prince Eugen vs Hood/POW battle. How may salvos did the Bismark fire and in what time span and target range did this occur?

A very excellent discussion of this is included in two of my favorite naval simulations game, one for miniatures and the other later product a turn based DOS game. Battle Stations! and Action Stations!, both by Cmdr Zimm, USN.

[canuck64]

oh my god Mdiehl,

those lyrics struck me somewhere near the hippocampus, and ....I REMEMBERED THEM...!!!

which necessarily caused a Grand Maal seizure. Picked myself up, dusted off and looked left and right, to see if anyone had seen me.

You mentioned Lovecraft.....it was a moment. Hope not to have any more of them. But thank you for that flashback.[8|]

[canuck64]

Mdiehl, while I'm still recovering from the aforementioned seizure, I'm hearing birdsong. Am I right-were there not fluttering bits of birdsong in the intro to that song (loving you)?

Oh god. I hope there's meds or therapy for what you've caused.....or rather retained bits of (ugh) pop culture -if you can call this culture and not imagine yogurt gone bad....

[Skyros]

All awesome tunes, you should add The Devil came from Kansas

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

" Favorite tune - Whiter Shade of Pale "

The most overplayed song by a great band. My favourites of theirs were (in no particular order, it depends upon my mood); Conquistador, A Salty Dog, Grand Hotel and A Souvenir of London. Conquistador still gets the occaisional airplay, but the others are never heard.

I'm testing that theory right now - it's Friday Night Flashback on KMTT and I just sent a request for anything by Procol Harum that insn't "A Whiter Shade of Pale" ...

[Demosthenes]

ORIGINAL: Nomad

Wow, this thread is going the way of "The Thread" [:D]


BTW Demosthenes, it's Janis Joplin not Janice [:-] *as Pearl plays loud and clear*

You are absolutely right Nomad - I stand corrected (I just spelled it off the top of my head, I spent more time drinking than reading in those days)

[Skyros]

THis is for you Pauk

Sink The Bismark
Written by Johnny Horton and Tilman Franks

In May of nineteen forty-one the war had just begun
The Germans had the biggest ship that had the biggest guns
The Bismark was the fastest ship that ever sailed the sea
On her decks were guns as big as steers and shells as big as trees

Out of the cold and foggy night came the British ship The Hood
And ever' British seaman he knew and understood
They had to sink the Bismark the terror of the sea
Stop those guns as big as steers and those shells as big as trees

1st CHORUS:
We'll find that German battleship that's mak'in' such a fuss
We gotta sink the Bismark 'cause the world depends on us
Hit the deck a-runnin' boys and spin those guns around
When we find the Bismark we gotta cut 'er down

The Hood found the Bismark, and on that fatal day
The Bismark started firin' fifteen miles away
We gotta sink the Bismark was the battle sound
But when the smoke had cleared away the mighty Hood went down

For six long days and weary nights they tried to find her trail
Churchill told people put ever' ship a-sail
'Cause somewhere on that ocean I know she's gotta be
We gotta sink the Bismark to the bottom of the sea

(REPEAT 1st CHORUS)

The fog was gone the Sabbath day and they saw the mornin' sun
Ten hours away from homeland the Bismark made it's run
The Admiral of the British fleet said turn those bows around
We found that German Battleship and we gonna cut 'er down

The British guns were aimed and the shells were comin' fast
The first shell hit the Bismark they knew she couldn't last
That mighty German battleship is just a memory
Sink the Bismark was the battle cry that shook the seven seas

2nd CHORUS:
We found that German battleship a-mak'in' such a fuss
We had to sink the Bismark 'cause the world depends on us
We hit the deck a-runnin' and we spun those guns around
Yeah! we found that mighty Bismark and we had to cut 'er down

REPEAT 2nd CHORUS*

ORIGINAL: pauk

Bismarck was scuttled!

[Skyros]

What you did not like the Billy Jack movies[:D]

ORIGINAL: mdiehl
"One Tin Soldier" and almost as bad as "Having My Baby."

Oh the foul, foul, Lovecraftian Horror of it.

The memories would kill me were it not that I bust out laughing to the edge of tears every time I consider that people actually listened to that stuff and thought it good.

[Demosthenes]

ORIGINAL: Skyros

What you did not like the Billy Jack movies[:D]

ORIGINAL: mdiehl
"One Tin Soldier" and almost as bad as "Having My Baby."

Oh the foul, foul, Lovecraftian Horror of it.

The memories would kill me were it not that I bust out laughing to the edge of tears every time I consider that people actually listened to that stuff and thought it good.

[:D][:D][:D]

No!!!

[bradfordkay]

ORIGINAL: Skyros

All awesome tunes, you should add The Devil came from Kansas

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

" Favorite tune - Whiter Shade of Pale "

The most overplayed song by a great band. My favourites of theirs were (in no particular order, it depends upon my mood); Conquistador, A Salty Dog, Grand Hotel and A Souvenir of London. Conquistador still gets the occaisional airplay, but the others are never heard.

I'm testing that theory right now - it's Friday Night Flashback on KMTT and I just sent a request for anything by Procol Harum that insn't "A Whiter Shade of Pale" ...

The DJ dodged the question. He played a song from Trower's Bridge of Sighs...

[Rainerle]

Hi,
This thread makes me wonder in just one thing:

Aren't there any HOOD fanboys out there ? Defending the lost pride of the RN ???

[hawker]

Hi,
This thread makes me wonder in just one thing:

Aren't there any HOOD fanboys out there ? Defending the lost pride of the RN ???

Hood is wonderfull and probably most beautiful warship ever built.
You will never heard any good of that ship from allied fanboys here because she was sink by "junk" Bismarck. But,if Hood was not sink and survive war nobody of these fanboys wouldnt say anything bad of Hood like now,"overgunned cruiser,tin can" etc... One way minds i say[;)].
I like Hood,i like Bismarck. Hood has many peace time succes when travels the seas and show Brittish flag and power. She even visit my hometown in Croatia,Split,i think in 1922. Grandfather of my friend took picture of she at anchor outside Split harbor. Beutiful ship.

[Iridium]

Are we going to have to have a "Which ship was the best looking (in their class)" thread? [:D] I think my opinion is rather obvious on BB's, but BC? Hmm...

[Fornadan]

At least when it comes to naming, the RN wins with a good margin

American and German ships have such boring names

[hawker]

Are we going to have to have a "Which ship was the best looking (in their class)" thread? I think my opinion is rather obvious on BB's, but BC? Hmm...

Doesnt really matter.
Hood is "tin can",Bismarck is "junk",Yamato is big "junk".
These "junks" are easy prey for any US ship.
BB Nevada is more than enough for Bismarck or Yamato in heads and dreams of some people here.

[Oldsweat]

On the music front, there's always the
Electric Light Orchestra (once when I transferred my division gave me a "Death Before Disco" T shirt, which sadly succumbed to the laundry after years of wear, the Harley Davidson belt buckle that came with it I still have [:)]), Don't Bring Me Down.

From what little I've gleaned in Okun's study, it seems to me that the Bismark was developed for a very specific situation. Short range, low visibility, low angle gun fire (no plunging), and poor sea states.

interesting and logical for the North Sea. Makes the radar FCS question even more compelling, particularly if one extends things to say late 1943. I'll agree with El Cid wrt bearing error in radar, although that would apply more to mechanically trained systems and scopes rather than modern phased array devices. Except at extreme ranges I don't imagine bearing dipersion on a target as big as a beam on capitol ship would be a huge problem, though. Even with optical solutions it's still pretty normal to use techniques such as a walking range ladder when shooting. A first shot hit is more of a statistical anomoly than particularly good shooting, it may even be considered bad shooting, since normal practise is to shoot long, short then on (range ladder). Something I imagine many if not most of you already knew. Still it's pretty cool to watch the shells in flight on FCS radar.
This is probably a minor quibble but the optics in individual turrets and mounts are most often used as a safety measure rather than as a primary fire control device, permitting assurance of a clear range when shooting, hopefully preventing blue on blue shots. Otherwise they are an emergancy back up and have a fairly limited viewing field. The range finders in the master director are more commonly used to control the guns since it has a better field of view and is linked to the computer to permit synchronised shooting. For this reason the number of range finders is of less interest than the quality, placement and operator skill of the primary director.

You fellows have had a busy week.

To maintain the tradition of threads on this board I prefer dark beers and stouts.

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: Rainerle
This thread makes me wonder in just one thing:

Aren't there any HOOD fanboys out there ? Defending the lost pride of the RN ???

I stopped using my sig a while ago, but I think I will switch it on again just to reply to this post...

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: Rainerle

Hi,
This thread makes me wonder in just one thing:

Aren't there any HOOD fanboys out there ? Defending the lost pride of the RN ???

well not a fanboy, but Hood was certainly a beatiful and powerful ship, not an overgunned cruiser. Her preposed refit would have stolen that beauty but maybe preserved her for a future inglorious scrapping. (but the men would have lived...which is the most important factor)

That good enough? [;)]

[bradfordkay]

I've been a battlecruiser fan since childhood (after purchasing Avalon Hill's Jutland), and the Hood and Alaskas have always been my favorite ships. They were both absolutely graceful and beautiful ships.

However, I'm realistic enough to know that they were not designed to stand in line of battle versus dreadnoughts. The original idea was that they could outrun anything that could outfight them, and outfight anything that could outrun them. By WW2, however, battleships were able to reach battlecruiser speeds and so the battlecruiser type became an endangered species.

The British had a history of misusing the type (the Germans, too), regularly using them to confront dreadnoughts. Their loss numbers reflect this habit. Many naval theorists are scathing towards the battlecruiser type, and I can understand why. They really were to expensive to be so fragile. I, on the other hand, find that many of them were the most beautiful of warships (rather like the frigates of Nelson's era), and so I have a soft spot in my heart for them.

[Nikademus]

Yes but Hood was not a true battlecruiser in comparison to the WWI types. She was in fact the world's first fast battleship. At the time of her commissioning she was (ironically) the UK's best protected capital warship. Her design however was too advanced to fully incorporate all of the wartime lessons and she remained an incremental-armor design (vs. the more modern "all or nothing" type) with the weight of her protection focused on the vertical (flatter trajectory shellfire). While not a crippling aspect in 1920, by 1941 her horizontal protection was woefully lacking. The preposed refit would have added several inches of deck armor to her primary armor deck, making her more survivable. The British termed Hood a "Battlecruiser" but post-WWI, this term's meaning had changed within the Royal Navy. "Battlecruisers" encompassed fast capital ships with the speed to operate detached from the main battlefleet. "Battleships" encompassed the more traditional type, slower,t more heavily armed and armored and meant only to operate on the line. The G3 'Battlecruisers' which succeeeded the older Hood class, were certainly not "battlecruisers" in the traditional sense in comparison to the first types such as Invincible.

As for the losses, had the Admiralty listened to a knowledgable few in regards to the stability of their cordite, its conceivable that none of the three lost at Jutland would have been lost. I agree though that the entire BC concept was flawed in that once other nations built similar classes you in effect would inevitably have a scaled down version of the main event with the BC fleets facing off just as the BB fleets were meant to face off. Once technology allowed the merging of the battleship with the speed of the battlecruiser, the issue became moot anyway.

[herwin]

The Brits like to saunter (walk slowly) and show poor lane discipline (both as pedestrians and drivers). Most of their infantry was slow-moving, and very few (elite) troops marched quickly. (I had American straight-leg infantry training, and the pace I learned seems to be faster than the standard UK pace. 8) I think they carried over their preferences into capital ship design...