Should we fix CD units?

[el cid again]

Here I am not referring to making the number of guns and their size be correct. This is easy and Andrew did it already for CHS - and I did almost identical units for RHS.

Rather, this thread is an outgrowth of a complaint thread on the main WITP forum. Posters there have convinced me that major CD units almost certainly do not get the special advantages they should compared to light, mobile CD units. At the same time, I am listening to their complaint that many types of Army weapons - notably mortars and howitzers - won't do the same damage to armored ships that realy high velocity rifles will.

To start at the end, I unintentionally fices the latter problem when I did my device review. I concluded that armor piercing values were too high for mortars and howitzers (and rockets) - and that often they also were zero for all weapons when that is silly. I noted that many weapons used the real formula (1.75 times caliber) for a high velocity rifle - and adopted that for long guns. . But for howitzers and mortars I used a different formula - based on lower velocity. And I noted that "anti-armor" value is = to penetration, so I made it correspond (I assume that penetration is for ships and anti-armor is for vehicle targets).

So much for lower value weapons. What about the advantages of fire control and hardness for major CD units? We can simulate the latter by adding forts - and also we need to insure the units are defined as CD "fort" which immobilizes them even better than having immobile devices does. That way these units cannot "walk around." [A huge 16 inch IJA CD gun - inland - will not move - because it is itself immobile - and it is part of a fort]. But what about better fire control? How about increasing the accuracy? The question is, by what function? What IS the relative advantage in sighting for a unit with dedicated sighting and computing infrastructures of the sort used at major CD installations?

Finally, what about concealment? It is a lot harder to see a battery ashore than a ship on the water. Is there any way to simulate that effect?If so, to what degree should it be a factor?

[Mike Scholl]

FEW THOUGHTS. Real (pre-war) CD systems should be basically an order of magnitude more accurate than ships. Generally ships firing on ships at reasonable ranges got 2-3% hits on average. so CD guns that are part of such a system (Like Tsushima or Manilla Bay) should get 20-30% in similar circumstances. In return, such CD guns were very difficult targets. With armored turrets or concrete and earth protection and by simply being placed out of direct vision behind a hill or in a pit, they had solid protection. They were also very small tough targets. A single heavy gun is not much of a target compared to a ship---and the way they were emplaced you had to literally hit the gun to put it out of commission.

As for the CD mortars and Howitzers, you are probably going to have to increase the penetration considerably. From what I've seen in the game, the Armor value of a ship is it's "belt" armor. CD Mortars and Howitzers dropped their shells on the decks, which seldom had even half of the armor of the belt. So to make the system work accurately you would have to at least double the Armor piercing value of these units to reflect this.

[TIMJOT]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

At the same time, I am listening to their complaint that many types of Army weapons - notably mortars and howitzers - won't do the same damage to armored ships that realy high velocity rifles will.

I would be careful here. As Mike pointed out there is such a thing as CD motars. Specifically the 12" variety found at the Manila and Oahu forts. These weapons utilizeing pre-plotted range tables were cable of extremely accurate plunging fire against the relatively thin deck armour on ships. There were probably more leathal to ships than the larger caliber 10", 12", 14"rifles

[Bradley7735]

Overall, I feel the damage that CD units do is too large. I wish CD units were not nearly as effective as they are in the game.

However, you seem to be speaking for only the true, pre-war units. Like Tokyo, San Fran, Oahu, Singapore, etc. I think it would be a good idea to make them more effective. I think invading places that were heavily fortified prior to 1942 should be extrememly costly and maybe not even possible. We've only seen examples of invasions at Pearl, and though it is costly, it seems that it is still too easy to accomplish. That's just my gut. Maybe I'm missing a bit of data.

[el cid again]

As for the CD mortars and Howitzers, you are probably going to have to increase the penetration considerably. From what I've seen in the game, the Armor value of a ship is it's "belt" armor. CD Mortars and Howitzers dropped their shells on the decks, which seldom had even half of the armor of the belt. So to make the system work accurately you would have to at least double the Armor piercing value of these units to reflect this.

Since the game records deck armor, I assume it uses it. But I hear it does not use tower armor, so it may not. You are absolutely right - in my case - not wishing to do a detail study on this first pass - I simply cut howitzer penetration in half - so I must double it to reach a value comparable to a long rifle of the same caliber. Since I see "deck armor hit" - I assume this means it was a deck armor hit - why do you think this does not happen?

Good post by the way - it is true at medium ranges ships might score 2% hits - and 0.2% at long range - and less at extreme range. At point blank it goes to about 6%. But my impression is that CD was better than 20-30% - US Army units often hit or straddled on the first shot - albiet at targets towed at uniform speeds on a strait course. Perhaps your value is a combat conditions one?

[el cid again]

I would be careful here. As Mike pointed out there is such a thing as CD motars. Specifically the 12" variety found at the Manila and Oahu forts. These weapons utilizeing pre-plotted range tables were cable of extremely accurate plunging fire against the relatively thin deck armour on ships. There were probably more leathal to ships than the larger caliber 10", 12", 14"rifles

In the early 20th century these 12 inch mortars were placed at virtually every US major CD site. Originally in batteries of 8, these were mostly reduced to 4, because they were too close to permit servicing at full rate of fire. They were felt to be very dangerous - and still sufficiently so in WWII to be retained. They were regarded as not of sufficient range for post 1925 battleships, however. They could ONLY use high trajectory fire, and against early ships, they had little deck armor to penetrate, so they probably were very capable weapons. Japan has a similar weapon - but it is classified as a "short" gun rather than as a mortar. It was a cut down 12 inch "long" gun of the same (WWI) era - and neither had very much range. This is different from the WWII era "short guns" - which are really just short guns - intended for merchant ship use against submarines - but also used in CD applications - with the same target in mind - to deal with a submarine if it got too close to a port entrance. [Unlike us, the IJN used ASW rounds in most of its guns, and in particular in its medium caliber WWII era short guns. These were rounds shaped to have a predictable trajectory upon entering the water. Like a Hedgehog, they would be faster than sailing to the target location to drop DCs, and they would not go off unless they actually hit the target - which meant you knew if you hit it or not - rare in ASW.] I have no problem with the CD mortars and howitzers designed as such - unless they are not allowed to shoot at deck armor as Mike theorizes - which may be the case because there is no classification "CD mortar" as a weapon. What about field army weapons?

[el cid again]

However, you seem to be speaking for only the true, pre-war units. Like Tokyo, San Fran, Oahu, Singapore, etc. I think it would be a good idea to make them more effective. I think invading places that were heavily fortified prior to 1942 should be extrememly costly and maybe not even possible. We've only seen examples of invasions at Pearl, and though it is costly, it seems that it is still too easy to accomplish. That's just my gut. Maybe I'm missing a bit of data.

You understand my meaning perfectly. I think we see routine invasions of Singapore and Manila too. And I did it by sea with amazing effect - CD units seem always to fall in a day or two. Well - one exception - once I got burned badly - and said "ouch" - which I felt was reasonable - I didn't know then there were true heavy guns in the Bataan hex in the game!

I am interested in WHY you think ordinary CD guns are too effective - NOT the pre war major installations? I have the impression that ordinary CD guns still have advantages over guns afloat - concealment - and the guns do not pitch with the waves or move with the ship - an easier fire control situation. I bet the game models them as IDENTICAL to guns afloat - I see no indication of higher accuracy for CD or field guns - and if so that seems also to be an underrating situation. Often CD use the very same weapon as used afloat - so rating it the same is only close - not exactly correct. It should be MORE likely to hit.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

I would be careful here. As Mike pointed out there is such a thing as CD motars. Specifically the 12" variety found at the Manila and Oahu forts. These weapons utilizeing pre-plotted range tables were cable of extremely accurate plunging fire against the relatively thin deck armour on ships. There were probably more leathal to ships than the larger caliber 10", 12", 14"rifles

In the early 20th century these 12 inch mortars were placed at virtually every US major CD site. Originally in batteries of 8, these were mostly reduced to 4, because they were too close to permit servicing at full rate of fire. They were felt to be very dangerous - and still sufficiently so in WWII to be retained. They were regarded as not of sufficient range for post 1925 battleships, however. They could ONLY use high trajectory fire, and against early ships, they had little deck armor to penetrate, so they probably were very capable weapons. Japan has a similar weapon - but it is classified as a "short" gun rather than as a mortar. It was a cut down 12 inch "long" gun of the same (WWI) era - and neither had very much range. This is different from the WWII era "short guns" - which are really just short guns - intended for merchant ship use against submarines - but also used in CD applications - with the same target in mind - to deal with a submarine if it got too close to a port entrance. [Unlike us, the IJN used ASW rounds in most of its guns, and in particular in its medium caliber WWII era short guns. These were rounds shaped to have a predictable trajectory upon entering the water. Like a Hedgehog, they would be faster than sailing to the target location to drop DCs, and they would not go off unless they actually hit the target - which meant you knew if you hit it or not - rare in ASW.] I have no problem with the CD mortars and howitzers designed as such - unless they are not allowed to shoot at deck armor as Mike theorizes - which may be the case because there is no classification "CD mortar" as a weapon. What about field army weapons?

I think you will find that most of Japan's "CD mortars" were Krupp model 1890 11" CD Howitzers. And there were two reasons the US 12" Mortar pits were cut from 4 to 2 mountings. First, as you point out, was to alieviate crowding and improve the rate-of-fire. The second was that in practice they proved quite accurate and it was found that an 8 shell "pattern" wasn't necessary for hits to be obtained---4 was plenty.

I don't know much about the Japanese use of heavy "mortars" in the ASW field. It sounds like one of those ideas that sound better on paper than they prove in practice..., but I have nothing to back that up.

And I don't know for sure about the game's programming of "belt" vs. "deck" hits. If I had to guess I'd say it was totally random (like the "advanced" weather system). For normal Naval guns, such hits would be rare except at very long range/high elevation. For most pre-1920 CD guns it would be very rare because the gun mountings didn't provide enough elevation. But for CD Howitzers/Mortars virtually all hits should be deck hits because of the angle of fire.

[akdreemer]

ORIGINAL: el cid again


In the early 20th century these 12 inch mortars were placed at virtually every US major CD site. Originally in batteries of 8, these were mostly reduced to 4, because they were too close to permit servicing at full rate of fire.

In addition the concussion of all eight guns firing was just too unbearable, even incapacitating, for the very exposed guns crews in these gun pits. I have made it a practice to visit to any of the "Edicott Forts" if I am in the area. One the last survivng examples of the 12" CD Howitzer (Mortar)at Ft De Soto at the mouth of Tampa Bay last June.

[akdreemer]

pic

[Nikademus]

Nice.....Puget Sound has several ex-forts that contained heavy mortar batteries but the weapons were long since removed leaving weed filled circles in the ground. Fort Casey sports two salvaged disapearing guns rescued from the PI's. Neat day trip that was.

[el cid again]

I don't know much about the Japanese use of heavy "mortars" in the ASW field. It sounds like one of those ideas that sound better on paper than they prove in practice..., but I have nothing to back that up.

Actually, it is the short guns, and small mortars, that did most ASW work. But even big guns had ASW shells. We don't know the effectiveness of these. After all, sunk submarines do not come back to explain why they got sunk, or be examined. Even the people who were attacking usually do not know what worked, and what did not, because weapon effects are often delayed, and because a submarine under attack may not elect to surface when it should to repair damage - particularly in waters of a country regarded as barbaric. That means that a hit that might not be fatal normally gets a chance to become so. I note that post war the RN fielded an ASW mortar system while we made a projector very like the one we found in Japan in 1945 (with one tube of similar caliber) - very much like the short guns. I doubt the Japanese were very successful most of the time - because they usually didn't persist. But when they DID persist, as against USS Wahoo, it didn't matter much what they had: submarines unable to surface or run are generally in trouble. Japanese failures in ASW are similar to their failures with submarines - it is a failure of willful and skillful application. When Yamamoto ordered the sinking of USS Yorktown, the submarine skipper was exceptional because he pressed it - which was pretty rare. I don't think the problem is as much with the weapons as with their use.

[akdreemer]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Nice.....Puget Sound has several ex-forts that contained heavy mortar batteries but the weapons were long since removed leaving weed filled circles in the ground. Fort Casey sports two salvaged disapearing guns rescued from the PI's. Neat day trip that was.

Yeah, Ft Casey, Ft Worden and Ft Flagler. Have pics from all of these. There was also Fort Hayden just west of Port Angeles that sported 2 encased 16" guns and 2 more secheduled but never emplaced, along with 4 6" guns. No longer in existence but was there in 1941. How interestng that the none of the scenarios have anywhere the number of CD guns in the US West Coast or Oahu that were actually there.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: AlaskanWarrior

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Nice.....Puget Sound has several ex-forts that contained heavy mortar batteries but the weapons were long since removed leaving weed filled circles in the ground. Fort Casey sports two salvaged disapearing guns rescued from the PI's. Neat day trip that was.

Yeah, Ft Casey, Ft Worden and Ft Flagler. Have pics from all of these. There was also Fort Hayden just west of Port Angeles that sported 2 encased 16" guns and 2 more secheduled but never emplaced, along with 4 6" guns. No longer in existence but was there in 1941. How interestng that the none of the scenarios have anywhere the number of CD guns in the US West Coast or Oahu that were actually there.

I think if you check you will find that those 2 "covered" 16" guns and the 4 6" guns an Los Angeles were installed during the war and weren't there on December 7th. The ones at San Francisco were the "pilot" installation of this type and they were the only ones operational when the War Began.

[el cid again]

How interestng that the none of the scenarios have anywhere the number of CD guns in the US West Coast or Oahu that were actually there.

When I pointed this out - as well as no 16 inch guns in Japan - and not enough in Hawaii - and none at Rabaul - Andrew fixed it for CHS. I did the same thing (almost identical units) for RHS. However - I didn't know about 16 inch at LA - so they may have to be added. Do you have a documentary and/or photographic source? It seems missing in my books on the US coast artillery.

[el cid again]

I think if you check you will find that those 2 "covered" 16" guns and the 4 6" guns an Los Angeles were installed during the war and weren't there on December 7th. The ones at San Francisco were the "pilot" installation of this type and they were the only ones operational when the War Began.

As far as I know, in the Pacific, when the war began, there were very few super heavy guns. Aside from the older 14 inch at Fort Drum (Manila Bay), there were 2 16 inch at Panama (M1919), 4 at Oahu (2 M1919 and 2 modified with naval guns), and finally the 2 at San Francisco. There may have been others on the Gulf and East Coasts - I don't remember if I ever knew. There were two triple 14 inch turrets emplaced on Oahu during the war - but didn't quite make it (one was proof fired a few days after the war ended).

S

[akdreemer]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

I think if you check you will find that those 2 "covered" 16" guns and the 4 6" guns an Los Angeles were installed during the war and weren't there on December 7th. The ones at San Francisco were the "pilot" installation of this type and they were the only ones operational when the War Began.

As far as I know, in the Pacific, when the war began, there were very few super heavy guns. Aside from the older 14 inch at Fort Drum (Manila Bay), there were 2 16 inch at Panama (M1919), 4 at Oahu (2 M1919 and 2 modified with naval guns), and finally the 2 at San Francisco. There may have been others on the Gulf and East Coasts - I don't remember if I ever knew. There were two triple 14 inch turrets emplaced on Oahu during the war - but didn't quite make it (one was proof fired a few days after the war ended).

S

There were a few 14" guns which were nothing to sneeze at and rank as super heavy...
The Harbor Defenses of the Pacific http://www.cdsg.org/pacific.htm

The Harbor Defenses of San Diego
FORT EMORY /Coronado Heights
#134/2/16"/CBC/1944 NC /unofficially named Gatchell
Grant (#239)/2/ 6"/SBC/1943-1946/
Imperial/4/155 mm/PM
AMTB Cortez/2/90 mm/F/1943-1946/Coronodo Beach MR, Silver Strand, destroyed
FORT PIO PICO /North Island /1906-1919 (to Navy 1935)/ Naval Air Station/X
Meed/2/ 3"/P/1902-1919/guns to Rosecrans, destroyed
Pio Pico/2/90 mm/F/1942-1943/guns later moved to AMTB Fetterman
FORT ROSECRANS /Point Loma /1899-1958/ Navy Base, Natl. Cem. Cabrillo N.M. /MD, MC /KKKK
Ashburn (#126)/2/16"/CBC/1943-1948/modified
Whistler/4/12"/M/1916-1942/guns from DeSoto, extensively modified
White/4/12"/M/1916-1942/
Wilkeson/2/10"/DC/1900-1943/
Calef/2/10"/DC/1900-1943
Strong/2/ 8"/BCLRN/1941-1946
#237/2/ 6"/SBC/1943-1946 /unofficially named Woodward
Humphreys (#238)/2/ 6"/SBC/1943-1946/
Zeilin/2/ 7"/NP/1937-1943 / buried
Gillespie/3/ 5"/NP/1937-1943/empl. 1 destroyed, 2 & 3 overgrown
McGrath/2/ 5"/BP/1900-1943/repl. by 2-3" guns from Pio Pico, 1919
Fetterman/2/ 3"/MP/1900-1917/destroyed July 1940
AMTB Fetterman/2/90 mm/F/1943-1946/destroyed
AMTB Cabrillo/2/90 mm/F/1943-1946/destroyed
Point Loma/4/155 mm/PM//

The Harbor Defenses of Los Angeles
Bolsa Chica Military Reservation /north of Huntington Beach /private, state reserve /K
#128/2-16"/CBC/1944 NC /destroyed
Harrison (#242) /2- 6"/SBC/1944-1948/destroyed
unnamed/2-155 mm/PM/1942/
FORT MacARTHUR (Upper & Lower ) /San Pedro/ 1885-1975/ Air Force housing, city park /(M)/ KKKK
Osgood/1/14"/DC/1917-1944 / gun remodeled 1923, battery being restored
Farley/1/14"/DC/1917-1944
Leary/1/14"/DC/1917-1944/converted to HECP, 1944
Merriam/1/14"/DC/1917-1944/converted to HECP, 1944
"Erwin"/2/14"/RY/1926-1946/1 empl. L.R. (covered), 2 empl. L.R. (dest)
Barlow/4/12"/M/1917-1944
Saxton/4/12"/M/1917-1944
#241/2/ 6"/SBC/1948-1956/armed post-war, Generators still in place
JAAN #1/2/ 3"/P/1942-1946/L. R. (Cabrillo Beach), guns from Lodor
AMTB Gaffey Bulge/2/90 mm/F/1943-1946
AMTB Navy Field/2/90 mm/F/1943-1946/L. R., buried?
unnamed/2/155 mm/PM/1942
White Point Military Reservation /San Pedro /Air Force housing, city property /KK
Bunker (#127)/2/16"/CBC/1944-1948/
Long Point Military Reservation /Pt. Vicente (Rancho Palos Verdes) city park /KK
Barnes (#240) /2/ 6"/SBC/1944-195?/Pt. Vicente
unnamed/2/155 mm/PM/1942/Long Point, dest.
Other locations
"Eubanks"/2/ 8"/RY/1942-1945/Manhattan Beach, destroyed
Lodor/4/ 3"/P/1919-1927/Deadman's Island, destroyed
JAAN #2/2/ 3"/P/1942-1946/Bluff Park, Long Beach, guns from Lodor
AMTB Terminal Is./2/90 mm/F/1943-1946/Terminal Island, covered
AMTB Bluff Park/2/90 mm/F/1943-1946/Bluff Park, Long Beach, buried?
unnamed/3/155 mm/PM/1942/Costa Mesa (only two guns assigned), dest
unnamed/3/155 mm/PM/1942/Rocky Point (only two guns assigned), dest
unnamed/2/155 mm/PM/1942/El Segundo/Hyperion, orig 2 6-in NP, dest.
unnamed/2/155 mm/PM/1942/Playa Del Rey, destoyed
unnamed/2/155 mm/PM/1942/Pacific Palisades, destroyed
unnamed/2/155 mm/PM/1942/Port Hueneme, buried/destroyed
unnamed/2/155 mm/PM/1942/Oxnard, destroyed
unnamed/2/155 mm/PM/1942/Ventura, in surf 1992
unnamed/2/155 mm/PM/1942/Santa Barbara, destroyed/

2 of 7 6/1/2005 12:27 AM
The Harbor Defenses of San Francisco
Milagra Ridge Military Reservation/ Pacifica /Golden Gate National Recreation Area/KK
#130/2/16"/CBC/NB
#244/2/ 6"/SBC/1948-1950 /armed post war, guns from Ft. Columbia
FORT FUNSTON /Lake Merced /1917-1975/ Golden Gate National Recreation Area/KK
Davis/2/16"/CBC/1939-1948/prototype
Howe/4/12"/M/1919-1945/guns from Ft. W. Scott, destroyed
Bruff/2/ 5"/P/1919-1919/guns from Ft. W. Scott, destroyed
unnamed/4/155 mm/PM/1930s/destroyed by erosion
unnamed/4/155 mm/PM/1942/buried
FORT MILEY /Lands End /1900-1948 /VA Hospital, Golden Gate NRA /KK
Livingston/8/12"/M/1900-1943
Springer/8/12"/M/1900-1943
Chester/2/12"/DC/1898-1943/2 guns replaced 1920s
&/1/12"/BC/1898-1943
Lobos/2/ 6"/NP/1943-1945/Navy guns
#243/2/ 6"/SBC/1948-1949/
Call/2/ 5"/P/1915-1921/guns from Ft. McDowell, destroyed
AMTB Lands End/2/90 mm/F/1943-1948
FORT WINFIELD SCOTT/ Presidio/ (1852) 1885-1995/ Golden Gate NRA/ MD, MC /KKKKK
Dynamite/3/15"/Pn/1894-1904/converted to HECP, WWII
Lancaster/3/12"/DC/1899-1918/partially buried for bridge
Godfrey/3/12"/BC/1895-1943
Saffold/2/12"/BC/1898-1943
Howe/8/12"/M/1895-1920/1 empl. remains, others buried
Wagner/8/12"/M/1895-1920/buried
Stotsenburg/8/12"/M/1900-1943/4 guns removed 1918 to Ft. Funston
McKinnon/8/12"/M/1900-1943/
Cranston/2/10"/DC/1898-1943/built on
Miller/3/10"/DC/1898-1920
East/2/ 8"/BC/1897-1915/converted Rodman rifles
Slaughter/3/ 8"/DC/1899-1917/partially buried
Crosby/2/ 6"/DC/1902-1943
Chamberlin/4/ 6"/DC/1904-1918/1-6" DC installed by NPS 1976 SE, battery being restored
Chamberlin/2/ 6"/Ped./1920-1949/in modified DC emplacement
Boutelle/3/ 5"/BP/1898-1918
Sherwood/2/ 5"/P/1900-1917/guns to Ft. Funston
Baldwin/2/ 3"/MP/1901-1920/partially buried
Blaney /4/ 3"/MP/1907-1920
Point/2/ 3"/P/1944-1945 /guns from Yates, Ft. Baker
Gate/2/ 3"/P/1942-1945/guns from Gravelly Beach, Ft. Baker
AMTB Baker [Beach]/2/90 mm/F/1943-1946/buried?
FORT MASON /Black Point /1852-1975 /Golden Gate NRA/ MD, MC /KKKKK
Spanish War /2/ 8"/BC/1898-1910/converted Rodman rifles
Burnham/1/ 8"/DC/1900-1909/gun & carr to Ft. Columbia, built on
Alcatraz Island /1852-WW II /Golden Gate National Rec. Area /MD _
unnamed/2/ 8"/Rod/1900-1906/converted Rodman rifles
FORT McDOWELL /Angel Island /1852-(1928)1947 /state park /MC /KKKKK
Knox Point/2/ 8"/Rod/1898-1900/converted Rodman rifles
Drew/1/ 8"/BC/1898-1915
Wallace/1/ 8"/DC/1901-1915
Ledyard/2/ 5"/P/1901-1915/guns to Miley
AMTB/2/90 mm/F/NB?
FORT BAKER / Lime Point / 1867-1998/ Golden Gate NRA / MD/ KKKKK
Spencer/3/12"/BC/1893-1943/1 gun removed 1918
Kirby/2/12"/DC/1900-1941/1 gun replaced 1933
Cavello/3/ 8"/Rod/1900-1910/converted Rodman rifles
Duncan/2/ 8"/BC/1898-1917
Wagner/2/ 5"/BP/1901-1917
The Harbor Defenses of the Pacific http://www.cdsg.org/pacific.htm
Yates/6/ 3"/P/1904-1943/4 guns removed 1941
Gravelly Beach/2/ 3"/P/1942-1943/guns from Yates, buried
AMTB Gravelly Bch. /2/90 mm/F/1943-1946/partially buried
FORT BARRY /Point Bonita / 1905-1975 /Golden Gate NRA /MC/KKKKK
#129/2/16"/CBC/1943 NC /guns were at emplacement
Alexander/8/12"/M/1901-1943
Mendell/2/12"/DC/1901-1943
Wallace/2/12"/BCLR/1919-1948/casemated WWII
Guthrie/2/ 6"/P/1905-1946
Smith/2/ 6"/P/1905-1946
Rathbone/2/ 6"/P/1905-1946
McIndoe/2/ 6"/P/1905-1946
O'Rorke/4/ 3"/P/1905-1945
FORT CRONKHITE /Tennessee Point /1937-1975 Golden Gate NRA /KKKKK
Townsley/2/16"/CBC/1940-1948
unnamed/2/ 3"/P/1940s/training battery
Other locations
unnamed/2/155 mm/PM//Drake's Bay
(also Half Moon Bay and Moro Bay???)

The Harbor Defenses of the Columbia
FORT STEVENS /Point Adams /1852-(1947) /state park, private /MD, MC /KKKK
Clark/8/12"/M/1899-1942/4 guns to Canby 1918
Mishler/2/10"/DC/1897-1941/ARF, covered for HECP 1941
Lewis/2/10"/DC/1897-1920
Walker/2/10"/DC/1897-1920
Russell/2/10"/DC/1904-1944
Pratt/2/ 6"/DC/1902-1943 / battery being restored with full scale replica of 6 inch gun
Freeman/2/ 6"/P/1902-1920/6" guns to Willapa Bay, empl. destroyed
&/1/ 3"/MP/1902-1920
#245/2/ 6"/SBC/1944-1947 /2-5" naval mounts in empl. as displ 1981
Smur/2/ 3"/MP/1902-1920
AMTB #6/2/90 mm/F/1943-1946/Clatsop Spit
FORT COLUMBIA /Chinook Point /1864-(1947)/state park /MC /KKKKK
Ord/2/ 8"/DC/1898-1917/
&/1/ 8"/DC /1898-1917/Originally named Neary, now buried
Murphy/2/ 6"/DC/1900-1945
#246/2/ 6"/SBC/194? NA /2 guns repl. 1994 from Ft. McAndrew SE
Crenshaw/3/ 3"/MP/1900-1920
FORT CANBY /Cape Disappointment /1852-(1947) / state park, USCG /KK
Guenther/4/12"/M/1921-1942/guns from Stevens
Allen/3/ 6"/DC/1906-1945/3 guns removed 1917, 2 guns replaced 1918
O'Flyng/2/ 6"/DC/1906-1918/guns to Allen
#247/2/ 6"/SBC/1944-1947
AMTB #2/2/90 mm/F/1943-1946/Jetty

The Harbor Defenses of Grays Harbor (temporary)
North Cove, Shoalwater Indian Reservation (Willapa Bay) /K
unnamed/4/12"/M/1919-1919
unnamed/2/ 6"/P/1919-1932/guns from Ft. Stevens, later moved to Ft. Worden, covered
unnamed/2/155 mm/PM//one remains
Westport , private /K
unnamed/4/12"/M/1919/covered
#1/4/12"/RM/1942/at Pt. Brown
#2/2/ 6"/NP/1942-1944/one empl remains
unnamed/4/ 6"/NP/1942-/at Point Brown, one empl. remains
unnamed/2/ 5"/BP/1919-1919/guns from Lee, Ft. Flagler, one empl. remains
North/2/155 mm/PM/1942/ destroyed
South/2/155 mm/PM/1942/ on school property, extant

The Harbor Defenses of Puget Sound
FORT WARD /Bean Point / 1903-(1928)1938 / private, state park /MD, MC /KKK
Nash/3/ 8"/DC/1903-1918/private
Warner/2/ 5"/P/1903-1925/private
Thornburgh/4/ 3"/MP/1903-1920
Vinton/2/ 3"/MP/1903-1920 / lower rooms filled in
Middle Point Military Reservation /state park /MD, MC /KK
Mitchell/2/ 3"/MP/ 190? NA /across channel from Ft. Ward
FORT WHITMAN /Goat Island /1909-(1947) /state game refuge / MC /KK
Harrison/4/ 6"/DC/1911-1943/
FORT FLAGLER /Marrowstone Island /1898-1954 /state park KKKK
Bankhead/8/12"/M/1902-1942/
Wilhelm/2/12"/AGL/1898-1942////
Rawlins/2/10"/BC/1899-1918
Revere/2/10"/BC/1899-1941/guns to Canada, empl. mod. for 3-in AA
Calwell/4/ 6"/DC/1904-1918
Grattan/2/ 6"/DC/1905-1918
Lee/2/ 5"/BP/1901-1918/guns to Grays Harbor
Downes/2/ 3"/P/1905-1946
Wansboro/2/ 3"/P/1906-1946/2 guns repl. 1960 from Ft. Wint Still Emplaced
AMTB Marrowstone /2/90 mm/F/1943-1946
FORT CASEY / Admiralty Head / 1897-1953 / state park, college extention campus /KKKK
Schenck/8/12"/M/1899-1942/no mortars removed
Seymour/8/12"/M/1899-1942 /mortars held in reserve for temp. batteries
Kingsbury/2/10"/DC/1902-1942/1 empl. mod. for 3-in AA
Moore/3/10"/DC/1904-1942/1 empl. mod. for 3-in AA
Worth/2/10"/DC/1898-1942/ 2 guns repl 1963 from Ft. Wint Still Emplaced, battery being restored
Parker/2/ 6"/DC/1905-1918
Valleau/4/ 6"/DC/1907-1918
Turman/2/ 5"/BP/1901-1918
Trevor/2/ 3"/P/1905-1933/ 2 guns repl 1960 Still Emplaced
Van Horne/2/ 3"/P/1905-1945
FORT WORDEN /Point Wilson /1898-1954 /state park /MD? /KKKKK
Brannon/8/12"/M/1901-1943/
Powell/8/12"/M/1901-1943/
Ash/2/12"/BC/1900-1942
Kinzie/2/12"/DC/1910-1944
Benson/2/10"/DC/1907-1943
Quarles/3/10"/BC/1900-1941/
Randol/2/10"/BC/1900-1918
Stoddard/4/ 6"/DC/1906-1918
Tolles/4/ 6"/DC/1905-1943/2 guns rem '18
"Tolles B"// //1937-1946/ 2-6" P from Willapa Bay
Vicars/2/ 5"/BP/1902-1918
Putnam/2/ 3"/P/1907-1945
Walker/2/ 3"/P/1907-1946
AMTB Pt. Wilson/2/90 mm/F/1943-1946/In surf
Ebey's Landing / private /X
AMTB Ebey's Lndg/2/90 mm/F/1943-1946/buried
FORT EBEY /Partridge Point /state park /KK
#248/2/ 6"/SBC/1943-1946
Deception Pass / state park /X
North & South/4/ 3"/P/NB
Cape George /private? / X
unnamed/4/12"/RM/ 193? NA
unnamed/4/ 8"/RY//NB?
Angeles Point / private/ K?
unnamed/4/155 mm/PM/1942
CAMP HAYDEN / Striped Peak /county park/state land /KK
#131/2/16"/CBC/1944-1948
#249/2/ 6"/SBC/1945-
FORT HAYDEN (Cape Flattery Military Res.) /Makah Indian Res /X
#132/2/16"/CBC/NB
#133/2/16"/CBC/NB
#250/2/ 6"/SBC/NB
#251/2/ 6"/SBC/NB

[akdreemer]

The Harbor Defenses of Honolulu, Hawaii
FORT RUGER Diamond Head 1906-now Natl. Guard , State Dept. Land Nat. Res. State Civil Def. * * *
Harlow 8 12" M 1910-1943
Birkhimer 4 12" M 1916-1943 rebuilt, site modified
Granger Adams 2 8" BC 1935-1946 Black Pt., destroyed
#407 2 8" BCLRN 1942 NA tunneled into rock
S.C. Mills 2 5" BP 1916-1925 Black Pt., guns from Mott, destroyed
Dodge 2 4.7" A 1915-1925 2-4” NP WWII, orig. barrells at NG Armory Wahiawa
Hulings 2 4.7" A 1915-1925
unnamed 12 2.24" Ped. 1915-1919 emplacements for 6 pdr. parapit mounts
Ruger 4 155 mm PM 1942-1943 destroyed
Wiliwilinui Ridge M.R. private *
Kirkpatrick 4 8" 2xNT 1942-1948
Wili 4 155 mm PM destroyed
FORT DeRUSSY Waikiki Beach 1908- now Army recreation center , Army Museum *
Randolph 2 14" DC 1913-1944 2 - 7" guns now in emplacements, being restored
Dudley 2 6" DC 1913-1946 destroyed ’69
AMTB No. 5 2 90 mm F 1943-1946 destroyed
218 American Seacoast Defenses
FORT ARMSTRONG Kaakaukukui Reef 1899 private MD, MC X
Tiernon 2 3" P 1911-1943 destroyed
Sand Island Military Reservation *
Sand 4 155 mm PM 1937-1943 destroyed
Harbor 4 7" NP 1942-1944
AMTB No. 4 (Sand) 2 90 mm F 1943-1946 destroyed
Ala Moana AMTB 2 90 mm F 1943-1945 Ala Moana Beach Park, destroyed
Other locations- Honolulu ?
#304 2 6" SBC 1942 NC Punchbowl
#305 2 6" SBC NB, Koko Saddle
unnamed 2 240 mm H 1929-1941 Waimanalo
unnamed 2 240 mm H 1927-1941 Kaaawa, buried
unnamed 2 240 mm H 1927-1941 Ulupau, destroyed 1992
Punchbowl 4 155 mm PM 1943-1944 Punchbowl, 1 empl. remains
Koko Head 2 155 mm PM 1941-1942 Koko Head
School 4 155mm PM 1942-1944 Kamehameha School
The Harbor Defenses of Pearl Harbor, Hawaii
FORT BARRETTE Kapolei 1934 city/county park * * *
Hatch 2 16" BCLRN 1934-1948 casemated-WWII
FORT WEAVER Puuloa 1899 (1922) Navy Housing *
Williston 2 16" BCLR 1924-1948 ARF, destroyed
AMTB No. 1 2 90 mm F 1943-1945
Weaver 4 155 mm PM
FORT KAMEHAMEHA Queen Emma Point 1908-1949 Hickam AFB MD?, MC * * *
Hasbrouck 8 12" M 1914-1943
Closson 2 12" BCLR 1924-1948 casemated 1942
Selfridge 2 12" DC 1913-1945
Jackson 2 6" DC 1913-1943
Ahua 3 5” NP 1942-1944 Ahua Pt.
Barri 2 4.7" A-CM 1915-1924 Bishop Pt., destroyed
Chandler 2 3" P-CM 1915-1942 Bishop Pt., destroyed
Hawkins 2 3" P 1914-1943
AMTB No. 2 2 90 mm F 1943-1946
Kam 4 155 mm PM
Puu O Hulu M.R. * *
“Hulu” 2 7” NCM 1942-1944 incorporated into BCN #303
#303 2 6" SBC 1942 NC tunneled into rock
Other locations- Pearl Harbor ?
Arizona 3 14" NT 1945 NC Kahe Pt., from USS Arizona
Burgess 4 8" 2xNT 1942-1948 (Salt Lake) near Aliamanu Crater, destroyed
Brown’s Camp 4 8" RY 1937-1944 Browns Camp, Kahe Point
“Homestead” 3 7” NP 1942 Keaau Homesteads
Adair 2 6" A-CM 1917-1925 Ford Island, empl. elsewhere earlier ?
Boyd 2 6" A-CM 1917-1925 Ford Island
Nanakuli 2 5" NP 1941-1943 and 1-3" NP, destroyed
Oneula 2 5” NP 1942-1944 Oneula Beach (Ewa) destroyed
unnamed 2 240 mm H 1931-1941 Laie
unnamed 1 240 mm H 1927-1941 Pupukea
unnamed 3 240 mm H 1930-1941 Makua
Awanui 4 155 mm PM 1942-1944 Brown’s Camp
Barber’s Point 4 155 mm PM 1937-1942 Barber’s Point, destroyed
"X-Ray" 4 155 mm PM 1942-1944 Oneula Beach, destroyed
Homestead 4 155 mm PM 1942-1944 Makua Military Reservation
Kahe Point 4 155 mm PM 1942-1944 Kahe Point
The Harbor Defenses of Kaneohe Bay and the North Shore of Oahu, Hawaii
FORT HASE Mokapu Point 1942 Marine Corps Base, Hawaii * *
Pennsylvania 3 14" NT 1945-1948 Ulupau Head, from USS Arizona
Demerritt (#405) 2 8" BCLRN 1944-1948 Puu Papaa, tunneled into rock
Sylvester 4 8" RY 1942-1944 RY guns on specially built tracks, later dismounted
French (#301) 2 6" SBC 1944-194? Pyramid Rock
AMTB 2 90 mm F 1943-1946 Pyramid Rock
Reference Guide 219
East Beach 4 155 mm PM
North Beach 4 155 mm PM
Pyramid Rock 4 155 mm PM
Paumalu M.R. Waialee X
#408 2 8" BCLRN NB
unnamed 4 8" RY NB
Kawailoa M.R X
unnamed 4 8” RY 1940-1942
unnamed 4 155 mm PM
Opaeula M.R. private *
Riggs 4 8" 2xNT 1942-1948
Brodie Camp M.R. Helemano private *
Ricker 4 8" 2xNT 1942-1948
Kaena Point M.R. * *
#409 2 8" BCLRN 1942 NC tunneled into rock
Other locations- North Shore *
Kahuku 4 8" RY 1940-1944 dismounted RY with shields, 1 empl. remains
Cooper (#302) 2 6" SBC 1944-194? Lae o ka oio (opposite Kaioi Pt.), tunnels
Kahana 2 5” NP 1942-1943 Kahana Bay
Wailia 2 3” P 1942-1943 Wailia Pt., guns from Chandler, repl by 90m F?
AMTB No. 7 2 90 mm F 1943-1945 2-90 mm M/ 2-37 mm M, S. Pyramid Rock, 1 empl. rem.
AMTB No. 8 2 90 mm F 1943-1945 2-90 mm M/ 2-37 mm M, destroyed
Kahuku/Ranch 4 155 mm PM 1941-1945 Kahuku
Loko 4 155 mm PM 1942-1944 Kualoa Ranch
Ashley 4 155 mm PM 1939-1944 Ashley Military Reservation
Kaena 2 4” NP 1942 later converted to 155 mm site
Kalihi 2 4” NP 1942 Mokuoeo Is?
Dillingham 2 4” NP 1942 Mokuleia
Kaneohe 2 4” NP 1942 Kaneohe Bay
Oahu howitzer positions manned by field artillery units ?
Kalihi 2 240 mm H 1941-1944 Kalihi, atop Koalau Range
“Quadropod” 2 240 mm H 1941-1944 Paalaa
unnamed 2 240 mm H 1941-1944 Kole Kole Pass
unnamed 2 240 mm H 1941-1944 Kunia
Other locations- other islands ?
unnamed 2 7" NCM 1942 Ahukini, Kauai Is.
unnamed 2 7" NCM 1942 Monument, Kauai Is.

[akdreemer]

The Harbor Defenses of Cristobal, Panama (Panama Canal Zone, Atlantic side )
FORT RANDOLPH Margarita Island 1911 to Panama, 1979; commercial development * *
Webb 2 14" DC 1912-1948
#1 2 14" RY 1928-1948 2 guns for Panama, 4 empl. (#1 & #8)
Tidball 4 12" M 1912-1943
Zalinski 4 12" M 1912-1943
Weed 2 6" DC 1912-1946
X(4A) 4 155 mm PM 1940
2C 4 155 mm PM
5A 4 155 mm PM
FORT DeLESSEPS Colon 1911 to Panama, 1950s * *
Morgan 2 6" P 1913-1944 modified casemate mounts M1910
AMTB #3b 4 90 mm F 1943-1948 Cristobal mole, built over
FORT SHERMAN Toro Point 1911 MD, MC to Panama 1999 * * *
#151 2 16" CBC NB
Mower 1 14" DC 1912-1948
Stanley 1 14" DC 1912-1948
Howard 4 12" M 1912-1943
Baird 4 12" M 1912-1943
Pratt 2 12" BCLR 1924-1948 Iglesia Pt., casemated-WWII
MacKenzie 2 12" BCLR 1924-1948 Iglesia Pt., not rebuilt
Kilpatrick 2 6" DC 1913-1946
W 4 155 mm PM 1940
Other sites ?
U 4 155 mm PM 1918 Tortuguilla Point (the original “Panama” mounts)
V 4 155 mm PM 1940 Naranjitos Point
Y 4 155 mm PM 1940 Palma Media Island
Z(1A) 4 155 mm PM 1940 Galetta Is.
1B 4 155 mm PM Galetta Is.
Reference Guide 221
The Harbor Defenses of Balboa, Panama (Panama Canal Zone, Pacific Side)
FORT KOBBE (ex-Ft. Bruja) Bruja Point to Panama 1999 * *
Murray 2 16" BCLRN 1926-1948 Bruja Pt., casemated-WWII
Haan 2 16" BCLRN 1926-1948 Batele Pt., not casemated, empl. buried
AMTB #6 4 90 mm F 1943-1948
Z (3A)
FORT AMADOR Balboa to Panama, 1997; commercial development *
Birney 2 6" DC 1913-1943 buried
Smith 2 6" DC 1913-1943 buried
FORT GRANT Balboa to Panama, 1979 MD, MC * * * *
Newton 1 16" DC 1914-1943 Perico Is., filled to loading platform level
Buell 2 14" DC 1912-1948 Naos Is.
Burnside 2 14" DC 1912-1948 Naos Is.
Warren 2 14" DC 1912-1948 Flaminco Is., empls. filled to parapit edge
Prince 4 12" M 1912-1943 Flaminco Is.
Merritt 4 12" M 1912-1943 Flaminco Is.
Carr 4 12" M 1912-1943 Flaminco Is.
Parke 2 6" DC 1912-1948 Naos Is.
#8 2 14" RY 1928-1948 Culebra Is., empl (see #1, Randolph), covered
T 2 155 mm PM Flamenco Is.
U (10A) 2 155 mm PM Flamenco Is.
V (10B) 2 155 mm PM Culebra Is.
Other sites ?
W (1B) 4 155 mm PM Taboquilla Is.
2B 2 155 mm PM Taboquilla Is.
4 155 mm PM Paitilla Pt.
X 2 155 m PM Urara Is.
Y (1A) 4 155 mm PM Taboga Is.

[akdreemer]

Ironically the largest concentration of super heavies is on the Pacific side of the the Panama canal. The US was very sensitive to the possiblility of loss of and the defence of the canal for obvious reasons.