USN Fleet HQ's

[akdreemer]

So far I have identified only a total of four USN Fleet HQ's currently in play: Asiatic Fleet, 3rd, 5th, and 7th Fleets. One of the the importance of Fleet HQ's (type 20) are that they increase damage repair of ships. I have identified at least on additional Fleet HQ that should be in the game, the USN PAcific Flet, which Kimmel was CINC on Dec, 1941, and not th Central Pacific HQ which was a product of the Arcadia Conference. I have also identified four additional poetential "Fleet" hqs, these being the 11th, 12th, 13th, and 14th Naval District HQ's. What I fid interesting in a primarily Naval oriented game is that not more attention is given to US Naval HQ's.

"On 9 March 1942, the American Joint Chiefs of Staff split the Pacific into the South-West Pacific Area (SWPA) and the Pacific Ocean Area (POA). The South-West Pacific Area comprised Australia, New Guinea, and the Philippines. General MacArthur would be rescued from his beleaguered army in the Philippines to take command of this new military area from Australia. SWPA was not viewed in Washington as a prestigious command. President Roosevelt was not an admirer of MacArthur’s leadership qualities, and he felt that MacArthur deserved a posting to a location that was viewed in Washington as one of the backwaters of World War II. The ANZAC Area was abolished and Rear Admiral Leary and his ships were placed under MacArthur’s control.

In addition to his command of the Pacific Fleet, Admiral Chester Nimitz was appointed Commander in Chief Pacific Ocean Area. Under the overall command of Nimitz, the Pacific was divided into North, Central, and South Pacific sub-commands. Nimitz retained direct operational command of the North and Central Pacific areas. Rear Admiral Robert L. Ghormley was appointed Commander South Pacific, and he was responsible to Nimitz."

[Nomad]

I have always wondered why there was not 1 or 2 Naval HQs assigned to the West Coast.

[Andrew Brown]

The problem with HQs in CHS is that there are no free HQ slots. Another HQ would need to be "sacrificed" for every one added. A few could be created by adding them in LCU slots, but I don't know what aspects, if any, of a HQ will work if they are created in LCU slots instead.

Even if no special aspects of HQs work when they are created in LCU slots, it is still something I have thought about doing for such things as missing Corps HQs, as they would still provide a benifit of having a number of support squads.

[akdreemer]

ORIGINAL: Nomad

I have always wondered why there was not 1 or 2 Naval HQs assigned to the West Coast.

Yeah, one of the roles of the Naval District HQ's was the day-to-day operational control of Naval Yards located in their district. Thus these are the HQ's that manage the resources to repair ships, among other duties. Their exclusion requires and explanation.

[Nomad]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

The problem with HQs in CHS is that there are no free HQ slots. Another HQ would need to be "sacrificed" for every one added. A few could be created by adding them in LCU slots, but I don't know what aspects, if any, of a HQ will work if they are created in LCU slots instead.

Even if no special aspects of HQs work when they are created in LCU slots, it is still something I have thought about doing for such things as missing Corps HQs, as they would still provide a benifit of having a number of support squads.

Have I said lately that I hate slots? [:D][:@][:(][&:][:)]

[akdreemer]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

The problem with HQs in CHS is that there are no free HQ slots. Another HQ would need to be "sacrificed" for every one added. A few could be created by adding them in LCU slots, but I don't know what aspects, if any, of a HQ will work if they are created in LCU slots instead.

Even if no special aspects of HQs work when they are created in LCU slots, it is still something I have thought about doing for such things as missing Corps HQs, as they would still provide a benifit of having a number of support squads.

You know this just might be a way to free up some HQ's slots. Operationally a Corps HQ's would be with their units in a 60 mile hex and would funtion just the same since LCU's cannot be attached to them anyhow. Counting all the holes and place holders how many free slots are there presently . I counted at least 174 in CHS V1.6. In my work on the US LCU's I have added around 35 new units.

[timtom]

Wouldn't it be possible to free up one naval Hq slot by turning Asiatic Fleet into a support unit - I mean it's not like it's much use unless evac'd.

[el cid again]

I see no function for Pacific Fleet game wise. It duplicates Central Pacific.
I do think it makes sense to rename Central Pacific however. The game does not well tolerate a military chain of command. I am having a lot of trouble with Air HQ - figuring out if they can work as they really should?
But I am pretty sure they do not. While I can assign an air unit to an air HQ, when the time comes to change HQ - ONLY regional HQ are options!
The other question is - what region is the air unit in if it has a real Air HQ assigned? So far it looks like this works - it is the same as the Air HQ reporting region. But naval units seem not to be associated with any particular HQ at all.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: AlaskanWarrior

You know this just might be a way to free up some HQ's slots. Operationally a Corps HQ's would be with their units in a 60 mile hex and would funtion just the same since LCU's cannot be attached to them anyhow. Counting all the holes and place holders how many free slots are there presently . I counted at least 174 in CHS V1.6. In my work on the US LCU's I have added around 35 new units.

There's an important function of HQ's beyond merely lending support squads. The HQ, (if prepped) gives combat (and maybe other) bonuses. Also, higher level HQ's (like SWPAC, etc.) likewise give an additional bonus (if prepped) but only if a lower level HQ (with prep) is within range of the combat LCU's.

If you change the HQ's to non-HQ slots I presume you lose these bonuses.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

I see no function for Pacific Fleet game wise. It duplicates Central Pacific.
I do think it makes sense to rename Central Pacific however. The game does not well tolerate a military chain of command. I am having a lot of trouble with Air HQ - figuring out if they can work as they really should?
But I am pretty sure they do not. While I can assign an air unit to an air HQ, when the time comes to change HQ - ONLY regional HQ are options!
The other question is - what region is the air unit in if it has a real Air HQ assigned? So far it looks like this works - it is the same as the Air HQ reporting region. But naval units seem not to be associated with any particular HQ at all.

Units (of any kind) are not supposed to report to Air HQ's, period.

The Air HQ's do two things, 1) add support squads, and 2) have positive effects on air units within their command radius. These effects include more planes flying, higher morale, and maybe some other bonuses.

What I have never been able to figure out or get answered is whether Air HQ's being prepped for a location means anything. Most opinions I've seen indicate 'no, it does not matter'.

[akdreemer]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

I see no function for Pacific Fleet game wise. It duplicates Central Pacific.
I do think it makes sense to rename Central Pacific however.

Then you choose to ignore the fact that it was the "Pacific Fleet" that was in existence in 1941 when the Japanese attacked. As you so painfully defended a revised Phillipine Island setup to simulate a more historical beginning of the war I too feel that there has to be a Pacific Fleet hq's in Oahu on 12/7/1941 and its existence did not disappear afterwards. None of the other regional commands were in existence till early 1942. The hq's was not a operational hq's like the Central Pacific or the SW Pacific where the caoomaner oversaw operations on in their regions. It was a true Fleet Command HQ's. BTW, Nimitz was first appointed as the CINCPAC before any of the other HQ's were created, then subsequently he was informed that he would also be CINC of Pacific Ocean Area (POA) which would be divided into four operational regions: North Pacific, Central Pacific, South Pacific, and Southeast Pacific. He chose to retain operational control of the Central and North Pacific.

[el cid again]

The Air HQ's do two things, 1) add support squads, and 2) have positive effects on air units within their command radius. These effects include more planes flying, higher morale, and maybe some other bonuses.

What I have never been able to figure out or get answered is whether Air HQ's being prepped for a location means anything. Most opinions I've seen indicate 'no, it does not matter'.

The support squads will work regardless - in the hex. The other effects seem not to really work as advertised (as stated in the manual). They DO seem to work if a HQ is in the same hex as the air units. And it MAY BE they work if the units involved in a mission all share the SAME HQ - it is certainly possible to show the code is aware of them as such (it will generate a report listing them). I do not think an Air HQ being prepped is likely to work - but I admit I never thought of that. Since I am a test technician, I will see what I can figure out?

[el cid again]

Alaskan Warrior: I completely agree with you that Pacific Fleet should be at Oahu when the war begins. Completely. I think that unit can be assumed to represent Central Pacific when it forms - it has the same boss after all. IF you like, we ALSO could assume it represents North Pacific as well. I propose to RENAME Central Pacific as Pacific Fleet. I am open to any suggestion about what to do with North Pacific.

FYI I think these slots are hard coded for certain functions - you get only certain options in some situations and they will not list other HQ even if created. But if there is a HQ that is vital missing somewhere - we can rename and relocate North Pacific to do the job.

Then you choose to ignore the fact that it was the "Pacific Fleet" that was in existence in 1941 when the Japanese attacked. As you so painfully defended a revised Phillipine Island setup to simulate a more historical beginning of the war I too feel that there has to be a Pacific Fleet hq's in Oahu on 12/7/1941 and its existence did not disappear afterwards. None of the other regional commands were in existence till early 1942. The hq's was not a operational hq's like the Central Pacific or the SW Pacific where the caoomaner oversaw operations on in their regions. It was a true Fleet Command HQ's. BTW, Nimitz was first appointed as the CINCPAC before any of the other HQ's were created, then subsequently he was informed that he would also be CINC of Pacific Ocean Area (POA) which would be divided into four operational regions: North Pacific, Central Pacific, South Pacific, and Southeast Pacific. He chose to retain operational control of the Central and North Pacific.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

The support squads will work regardless - in the hex. The other effects seem not to really work as advertised (as stated in the manual). They DO seem to work if a HQ is in the same hex as the air units.

I believe that's because the command radius of most air HQ's is 1 (meaning same hex). Some, particularly some British air HQ's, have greater command radii.

[akdreemer]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Alaskan Warrior: I completely agree with you that Pacific Fleet should be at Oahu when the war begins. Completely. I think that unit can be assumed to represent Central Pacific when it forms - it has the same boss after all. IF you like, we ALSO could assume it represents North Pacific as well. I propose to RENAME Central Pacific as Pacific Fleet. I am open to any suggestion about what to do with North Pacific.

FYI I think these slots are hard coded for certain functions - you get only certain options in some situations and they will not list other HQ even if created. But if there is a HQ that is vital missing somewhere - we can rename and relocate North Pacific to do the job.

Then you choose to ignore the fact that it was the "Pacific Fleet" that was in existence in 1941 when the Japanese attacked. As you so painfully defended a revised Phillipine Island setup to simulate a more historical beginning of the war I too feel that there has to be a Pacific Fleet hq's in Oahu on 12/7/1941 and its existence did not disappear afterwards. None of the other regional commands were in existence till early 1942. The hq's was not a operational hq's like the Central Pacific or the SW Pacific where the caoomaner oversaw operations on in their regions. It was a true Fleet Command HQ's. BTW, Nimitz was first appointed as the CINCPAC before any of the other HQ's were created, then subsequently he was informed that he would also be CINC of Pacific Ocean Area (POA) which would be divided into four operational regions: North Pacific, Central Pacific, South Pacific, and Southeast Pacific. He chose to retain operational control of the Central and North Pacific.

Nimitz evenutually assigned the North Pacific to Rear Admiral Theobald so it should stay in the game. For expediency (albeit not historical) Pacific Fleet should replace Central Pacific.
North Pacific Area
(Established 17 May 1942)
Rear Admiral Robert A. Theobald: 17 May 1942--4 January 1943
Vice Admiral Thomas C. Kinkaid: 4 January 1943--11 October 1943
Vice Admiral Frank Jack Fletcher: 11 October 1943--2 September 1945

[el cid again]

The support squads will work regardless - in the hex. The other effects seem not to really work as advertised (as stated in the manual). They DO seem to work if a HQ is in the same hex as the air units.


I believe that's because the command radius of most air HQ's is 1 (meaning same hex). Some, particularly some British air HQ's, have greater command radii.

The command radius of air HQ is not in fact what the manual says it is.
There are a number of different values - in fact every value from 1 to 5 is used by one HQ or another. I regret to say that veteran players with over ten thousand turns believe the command radius may not work as you would expect it does. I hope you are right and they are wrong, but it is not clear to me, yet. I am attempting to test to measure this.

[el cid again]

Nimitz evenutually assigned the North Pacific to Rear Admiral Theobald so it should stay in the game. For expediency (albeit not historical) Pacific Fleet should replace Central Pacific.
North Pacific Area
(Established 17 May 1942)
Rear Admiral Robert A. Theobald: 17 May 1942--4 January 1943
Vice Admiral Thomas C. Kinkaid: 4 January 1943--11 October 1943
Vice Admiral Frank Jack Fletcher: 11 October 1943--2 September 1945

This is quite correct history - and probably a mistake as well. The Army and Navy commands - and sometimes also the USAAF as well - didn't get along with each other in the North Pacific. It was anything but a modern "joint" environment. The Army and the Navy did not cover themselves with glory in their relations with each other in PTO. In some ways, because it was early, these problems were worse in the North.
Most things we learned there we used to some advantage later. We really were not yet masters of joint land air sea operations. There is a battle in which we managed to land two forces on a diserted enemy island - except for six dogs all were gone. Canadian and US units proceeded inland from opposite ends of an L shaped valley, in limited visibility, until they made contact, and each assuming the other was the enemy, proceed to fight as if that were the case! The idea of doing a pre strike recon had not yet been born.

Note that in our game HQ ARE joint!! They have Adm Hart's Asiatic Fleet reporting to USAFFE - but that is nonsense. Adm Hart and Gen Mac would not eat together because each insisted at being at the head of the table! Neither recognized the other as superior. And when the President had secret orders to start a war, he sent them directly to Hart - no copy to Mac - and Hart also didn't tell Mac what he was up to. [See The Cruise of the Lanokai (book) and the Sea Classics article about USS Isabel - these being two of the three ships ordered to start WWII - the third didn't get outfitted before the war came.]

I think that North Pacific Navy assets should have reported to Gen Buckner of Alaskan Command (the name varies from time to time, but that is its current form). Just as Navy assets reported to Mac at the other flank of the Pacific campaign after SWPA was created. Look at the disasterous campaign in 1942 to see the effect of separate commands.

[akdreemer]

ORIGINAL: el cid again


This is quite correct history - and probably a mistake as well. The Army and Navy commands - and sometimes also the USAAF as well - didn't get along with each other in the North Pacific. parate commands.

Probably so but this was one of the realities of WWII.

[el cid again]

This is quite correct history - and probably a mistake as well. The Army and Navy commands - and sometimes also the USAAF as well - didn't get along with each other in the North Pacific. parate commands.


Probably so but this was one of the realities of WWII.

Our game does not work that way. OUR HQ are joint - and will coordinate air and naval units when appropriate. It probably is because the code is too simple to do anything else - and no one at Matrix with military experience can imagine people like Buckner and Theobold or Mac and Hart - who would not even talk to each other most of the time.


Anyway, I think the entire HQ structure for the Allies needs review. There is little need for lots of 0 an 1 hex HQs, so get all the big ones right, and maybe we scrap the little ones. I got rid of all Japanese groups - and I think the Allies should too. Go with major HQs and name them properly - all HQ at any given level.

I am experimenting with making Asiatic Fleet a real HQ - an independent one - it was and did NOT report to USAFFE at any time. Land units it controls could then also be moved without restriction.

[akdreemer]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

This is quite correct history - and probably a mistake as well. The Army and Navy commands - and sometimes also the USAAF as well - didn't get along with each other in the North Pacific. parate commands.


Probably so but this was one of the realities of WWII.

Our game does not work that way. OUR HQ are joint - and will coordinate air and naval units when appropriate. It probably is because the code is too simple to do anything else - and no one at Matrix with military experience can imagine people like Buckner and Theobold or Mac and Hart - who would not even talk to each other most of the time.


Anyway, I think the entire HQ structure for the Allies needs review. There is little need for lots of 0 an 1 hex HQs, so get all the big ones right, and maybe we scrap the little ones. I got rid of all Japanese groups - and I think the Allies should too. Go with major HQs and name them properly - all HQ at any given level.

I am experimenting with making Asiatic Fleet a real HQ - an independent one - it was and did NOT report to USAFFE at any time. Land units it controls could then also be moved without restriction.

I am still unclear about what you are thinking. Does this mean that the only HQ's should/will be command (type 10)?