Marginal Allied Airplanes (Spitfire PR.XI added [Last add?])

[JeffroK]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

The WIRRAWAY was also used as a frontline fighter, very badly. As well as a fighter bomber.

Yes - one book I have said it is credited with zero enemy aircraft. I think another said one. What a record!

Now add the 2 books together, it shot down one "Zero" type aircraft.

If you consider this is a Harvard/Texan with 2 x .303's it did an excellent job.

But, it was all we had and we had to make the best of it.

[JeffroK]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Someone posted on the forum the Liberator in my configuration was a Coastal Command aircraft. Another member of the forum privately confirmed that - and said it is doubtful any American bomber was used for offensive bombing by RAF in PTO. I am investigating, but possibly we will need to remove the Liberator and its units - or assign different aircraft it those units flew something else.

The RAF regularly bomber targets like Rangoon, Bankok, Moulimein and less often, Singapore with their Liberators. In addition they provided long range maritime patrol & strike.

I assume this is what you meant as CBI isnt PTO[8D]

[JeffroK]

The Empire Flying Boat in RAAF Service. From ADF Serial Numbers.
As you can see, some aircraft served wit 11, 33 & 41 Sqns.

A18-1 SHORTS S23 S.811 Ex G-ADUT 'Centaurus'. Originally Ex-BOAC, but at the start of the War BOAC S23's that were in Australia were transfered to QANTAS. An equal number of QANTAS Aircraft were tranfered to BOAC. Impressed to RAAF service from QEA, 09/39. Working out of Darwin 12/41, servicing RAAF bases in NEI, Koepang, Ambon, Buru. 03/03/42, Destroyed Broome Harbour during Japanese Air Raid.

A18-11 S23 S.843 Ex G-AEUA 'Calypso'. Impressed to RAAF service from QEA, 09/39. 11 Sqn, working in New Guinea area, Rabaul evacuations, etc, 11/41. Working in New Guinea area, Rabaul evacuations, etc, Jan 42. 33 Sqn is formed, takes over Empire Flying Boats, 16/02/42. Calypso A18-11, ex G-AEUA, sank near Daru, New Guinea 08//08/42, following damage sustained in a heavy seas landing for rescue of survivors of torpedoed steamship Mamuta.

A18-12 S23 S.849 Ex G-AEUG 'Coogee'. Registered VH-ABC 'Coogee' 26/09/38 to 28/08/40. Impressed to RAAF service from QANTAS, 28/08//40. Working in New Guinea area, Rabaul evacuations, 01/42. 33 Sqn is formed, takes over Empire Flying Boats, 16/02/42. Crashed during water landing at Townsville. RAAF crew killed, 28/02/42. Crew; FLTLT Robert John Love 400004 (Pilot), PLTOFF Peter Satterswaite Devonshire 407942, CPL William James French 10429, LAC Maurice Clayton 15065.

A18-13 S23 S.877 Ex G-AFBK 'Coolangatta'. Registered VH-ABB 'Coolangatta' 19/04/38 to 28/08/40. Impressed to RAAF service from QANTAS, 28/08/40. With 41 Sqn Coded DQ-A. With 11 Sqn 08/11/41, working out of Darwin to Ambon, NEI etc. Working in NEI area - evacuations in late 01/42. Released from RAAF, returned to Qantas Empire Airways, again as VH-ABB 29/07/43 to 11/10/44. Coolangatta VH-ABB Crashed Rose Bay, Sydney NSW 11/10/44. 1 Passenger killed and another 15 passengers and crew injured.

A18-14 S33 S.1025 G-AFPZ Clifton leased from BOAC to RAAF, 12/03/42. With 41 Sqn Coded DB-B. Allotted to 33 Sqn, 14/03/42. Released from RAAF service 26/06/43 bought by QEA, registered then as VH-ACD. Clifton VH-ACD, HUSSEY and ASHLEY, was lost during a training landing accident at Rose Bay, Sydney 18/01/44. Brought ashore, damaged now by salt water, was converted to components.

[JeffroK]

ORIGINAL: Black Mamba 1942

The RAF did love the US medium and light bombers , though.
B-25's, A-20's etc. Heavy bombers seem to be another story.

But the Mediums & Lights were only used in the ETO.

[JeffroK]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Are flying boats in tiny numbers like Singapore and Stanraer justified, when major types are unable to be represented? What do they bring, aside from flavor? These one unit planes cannot long survive the heat of operations, and soon must disappear, or be idle.

They add accuracy, and what major types do they take out of the game, equally delete the P26 & P35 as they seem to do SFA.

Turns out not to be the case - if any units operate them in the actual theater. Singapore was withdrawn in 1941 - the four survivors were turned over to RNZAF - I have not determined what happened to them after that. Only 15 were in service when the war began in 1939 - so 11 were lost between then and April 1941. It is clear we should not have this aircraft. It was replaced by the Sunderland - so any unit rated for it probably gets Sunderland instead. [Not a bad trade]. Stranraer is more complicated. It ALSO was withdrawn from RAF service before the Pacific war began - in April 1941. But EVEN WHEN IN SERVICE it NEVER was "overseas" - it was ALWAYS a Coastal Command aircraft. Any RAF listing for it is plain wrong. There I almost quit - but the database shows it in CANADIAN service - so I kept digging. I found ANOTHER 40 were built for RAAF. OK - a few might be still around when the war begins. So I did an inventory - to get the pool. OOPS - stock (and CHS) list five squadrons of 9 plus 5 spares - 50 machines - which is 10 more than ever were built! Odds are long there were not more than 30 when the Pacific conflict began. That is enough for one or two squadrons for a short period - but this only on the North American West Coast. We want a plane type for this? I think we should replace it with the Catalina in those squadrons - IF they even existed. Since I have IDs- I will track it down. But I am not inclined to keep this plane as a separate plane for one or two RCAF squadrons in Canada.

I cannot justify retaining the Singapore for four planes as of August (probably fewer by December). I cannot justify retaining the Stanraer for a total build of 40 in the 1930s, unlikely to be more than 30 by the end of 1941, and those split between Atlantic and Pacific Canada. I will probably outfit the Canadians with Catalina's - and maybe give them one squadron early representing the 15 or fewer Stranraers that could have operated in the West. I did find a RCAAF history - its very first base in the West was at Vancouver - so we know where to put them.

The Shorts Singapore was never supplied to the RAAF.

I agree that 4 Aircraft is not worth the slot, but you need to replace them with something ? Catalina or Sunderland?

[el cid again]

The Empire Flying Boat in RAAF Service. From ADF Serial Numbers.
As you can see, some aircraft served wit 11, 33 & 41 Sqns.

Some appears to be a total of 5. And only two had weapons fitted according to the history of the aircraft itself from several sources.
This is a very marginal case - a total of 38 surviving machines by 1938 implies probably even fewer by 1941. And they are stated to be used outside the theater as well as inside - so only a fraction of that is ever available. Were they not long range and historically significant I would not even consider a case this small in numbers - as clearly we ignore much more numerous types. If only 5 were pressed, than that is too few to matter - and IF we allow the planes in as civil transports that ALSO can do searches on command - those searches are "pressing" in game terms.

You have not addressed the question I asked - what OTHER plane did those units use? My RAF listing is not showing them - in spite of apparently being comprehensive - probably because I am not looking up the right plane type (units are listed by aircraft type). I do not care if one or two Empires were in this unit or that one. I am putting in the Empires in a way that allows them to be used for transport or search - and I am not putting in a squadron for 1 or 2 planes. What planes IN NUMBERS served with these units, if any? [India had something like 10 squadrons, but some operated a single light plane not modeled - and thus they don't count until they get issued Hurricane or whatever in numbers.] Simulations only model important things and ignore trivia. In this case, software limits how much trivia we can have.

[el cid again]

The Shorts Singapore was never supplied to the RAAF.

Two points of confusion here - one yours - one mine.

First, it is the Stranraer that was being discussed at that moment - having just disposed of the Singapore. Second, since I said "the database shows it in CANADIAN service" it should be clear I meant RCAF - but I typed it wrong as RAAF. [I type RAAF so much now that it is apparently a habit!]

[el cid again]

I agree that 4 Aircraft is not worth the slot, but you need to replace them with something ? Catalina or Sunderland?

Maybe not. Canada was in awful shape and had NO air bases at all when the war began! The official RCAF history shows it created a "Home Defense Air Force" from scratch, and "the first base" was at Vancouver, BC. It may be these units do not appear at all when the database says - I have now located the data and will review it unit by unit. When they appear they will either have Catalina or B-18s (deduced from the aircraft purchase order list).

[Black Mamba 1942]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

ORIGINAL: Black Mamba 1942

The RAF did love the US medium and light bombers , though.
B-25's, A-20's etc. Heavy bombers seem to be another story.

But the Mediums & Lights were only used in the ETO.

[>:][>:][>:][:D]

Here's two RAF units in India that flew B-25's.
681 Sqdrn, and 684 Sqdrn.[;)]

[el cid again]

Here's two RAF units in India that flew B-25's.
681 Sqdrn, and 684 Sqdrn.

681 is not in the CHS/stock database.

684 is assigned Mosquitos.

Ah - I found them. Apparently they flew Mitchell only as a photo recon ship. They may well have had more than one type on charge - recon units often do hat. My RAF history does not indicate they ever had any bombers.

[Iron Duke]

Hi,

El cid again, you're correct i have 681 flying Mitchell II's , Hurricane IIB''s ,Mosquito's and spitefires as part of 171 wing doing photo recon they eventually standardized on the spitfire .

Also 681 appears to have started as No. 3 PRU and redesignated 681 in jan 43 at Dum Dum , India

684 formed from elements from 681 in sept 43 at Dum Dum , India. flew Mitchell II and Mosquito's

[el cid again]

Thanks Iron Duke


I presume you know the historical significance(s) of your handle?

[Black Mamba 1942]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Here's two RAF units in India that flew B-25's.
681 Sqdrn, and 684 Sqdrn.

681 is not in the CHS/stock database.

684 is assigned Mosquitos.

Ah - I found them. Apparently they flew Mitchell only as a photo recon ship. They may well have had more than one type on charge - recon units often do hat. My RAF history does not indicate they ever had any bombers.

Yes, this is what I talked about earlier.
RAF Commands used aircraft for the various mission requirements.
It just depended on what command was responsible for what.
WITP really has no distinction between the various commands.
Just a listing of airgroups.

[Iron Duke]

Hi

Iron Duke = Wellington = politician = iron shutters on windows = new nickname

[akdreemer]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

However, your original statement claimed that the A-36 never flew in combat in any theatre. Just setting the record straight.

Well, thats what I read under the description of the plane in American Warplanes of World War II. Your data makes it harder to know what to do? It is certainly an obscure airplane. Does it have a role to play? It is listed as available from 5/43. It is listed as a fighter-bomber.

Its role is pretty obscure in the CBI theatre. I have no problem getting rid of it as just as soon as the P-51A got its Merlin then it became a real fighter.

[akdreemer]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

el cid,

Part of the problem is that some units didnt see much action or were marginal combat aircraft. However, should the Japanese invade Australia, New Zealand or India, every possible aircraft would be scraped up, even out of Training schools, to defend the country.

My solution to the problem would be to take the USSR out of the game, make the Japanese keep a garrison and free up lots of slots for various uses.

Now one of the best suggestion I have seen so far.. Give the garrison units one pt of fort would do the trick.

[el cid again]

However, your original statement claimed that the A-36 never flew in combat in any theatre. Just setting the record straight.

Well, thats what I read under the description of the plane in American Warplanes of World War II. Your data makes it harder to know what to do? It is certainly an obscure airplane. Does it have a role to play? It is listed as available from 5/43. It is listed as a fighter-bomber.

The dates in the CHS database are 5/43 for the A-36 and 9/43 for the P-51. If these dates are correct for the theater, it appears the A-36 is a bit sooner. At the moment we have a reasonable number of unused slots, and I am out of time for planes, so I will leave it for now - but revisit it if there is a slot issue next time around. I am hearing no clammoring for any other types at this point - except maybe another version of P-40 (there already are 3 US versions and 1-3 export versions - depending how close you count it as a P-40 equivilant - and I see no particular need for yet another).




Its role is pretty obscure in the CBI theatre. I have no problem getting rid of it as just as soon as the P-51A got its Merlin then it became a real fighter.

[el cid again]

My solution to the problem would be to take the USSR out of the game, make the Japanese keep a garrison and free up lots of slots for various uses.



Now one of the best suggestion I have seen so far.. Give the garrison units one pt of fort would do the trick.

I will ignore for the moment my issues with this as history: in game mechanics terms just where does it say I can define the garrison requirement? How can I do that? I see no mechanism other than the ineffective one in place.

HOW TO DO IT? My only idea is this one: take the garrison OUT OF THE GAME. ALL units in the North, and ALL units that reinforce them, are simply taken out of the database. Lots of problems with that - but it might be doable in a mechanical/technical sense.

In simulation terms, the Soviet Far East is as big a problem as China is, from the point of view of Japan. It is a potential vital source of raw material and population, an extension of Manchukuo and NE China, which Japan wrested (along with Korea) from Russian influence in pre communist days. It also is a terrible threat, and at least a major contributing factor to the decision to surrender: some think it is the reason for the decision to surrender. The possibility of conflict, started by either side, is - and ought to be - structural to the game: otherwise it is not history, and Japan is much safer (and secure in the knowledge it is safer) than Imperial Japan ever could be. Foreign Minister of Japan Togo said "Every night I go to sleep worried about what to do about Russia. Every morning I wake up without an answer." The stakes are high indeed - and in fact this is the one and only place the Axis could have moved to WIN WWII as a global war. Only a Japanese invasion and defeat of the Soviets in the Far East in 1942 holds any promise for turning around the awful economic resource situation and isolation of the Axis powers. [Axis powers drawing on ex-Soviet raw materials and industry, and linked by the Trans-Siberian RR would probably have a strategic advantage over any US-UK based alliance. It might not win, but it would be more clearly in the game than isolated European and Asian Axis pockets ever could have been.] On the flip side, a Soviet invasion, or basing for Allied bombing and invasion operations, of Japanese territories wholly changes the strategic situation to Japan's disadvantage. The politics that long delayed this are history - but they were anything but guaranteed to last as long as they did. The way they ended - with Soviet abrogation of the deal - indicates such an ending is more than possible - it is actually history. Details of operational and tactical timing would not be the same in different strategic and operational situations - so these are best left to players - not cast in stone. Questions of might have beens also are germane and reasonable for players to deliberately simulate. I am like Togo - I do not have a good answer for what to do about Russia. But giving Japan ALL the offensive options (the original Matrix design) seems wrong. Giving Japan a minimal garrison requirement seems wrong. Giving Japan an ironclad need not to fear a Soviet invasion seems wrong. And saying the Soviets could not decide to invade eariler, or agree to cooperate with the allies more, is also wrong. IMHO.

[el cid again]

Should we add any more Allied planes?

For example, a PR version of the Spitfire would allow 681 squadron to form (and others to upgrade) - this would give RAF a dedicated PR unit a year before 684 forms (1943 vs 1944).

There is a later version of the F4F - important IRL because small carriers could not operate the larger F6F/F8F/F4U types. It does not matter in that sense for us in game terms - our carriers can operate ANY carrier plane. But it ALSO is available SOONER than these types - from late 1942 - and while it is only marginally better - that might matter to us.

There are apparently dedicated PR versions of bombers (e.g. the Mitchell).
There is a British glider used in some numbers (about half as many as American gliders already added) in Burma. There are many transports..

Some good news: it appears the pilot limit is not an issue for newly started games. Matrix has been fixing some things right along.

[Black Mamba 1942]

Dedicated PR units is one thing the Allies are really lacking in.
Even though they weren't in reality.[;)]

PR Mitchells would be a great addition.
Perfect for usage in the CBI.