WitP 2 Map scale

[keeferon01]

why not just use Kilometers instead, can use 60Km hex sides equals about 37.28 miles

[el cid again]

1760 yards per mile means a 10 mile hex is 17600 yards across.

Talk about being silly! The statute mile is used only in one country on the planet any more. It is not suitable for navigation - one can work out navigation in you head if you use nautical miles: a minute of latitude is always a nautical mile, a minute of longitude at the equator is as well. The manual says - and some game functions are coded assuming - nautical miles. [Consider ships: their speed is in "knots" and their range is in "nautical miles."] Whatever scale you advocate, please do not even consider using statute miles - American ignorance be damned. The world thinks in km and nautical miles (1 nm = 2 km, near enough). This is an international game with an international market. Time to grow up and also do things the easy way.

[el cid again]

Why on earth would you want to preserve the same hex combat system?

I will repeat my self (once): It is a superior system if you wish to do accurate simulation of naval air combat. And it is perfectly feasible to make it adequate for a land combat system. Having had to address this for more modern combat ( I deal with China IRL - but in a naval air context we had to go with what works best for that ) I will say that, AFTER you see same hex combat work well for land combat, you are LIKELY to PREFER it. Many things follow as logical consequences - in many ways combat in different hexes is very artificial and needs to be rationalized.
Just because you are not used to it does not mean it is not a good design concept.

[el cid again]

Let’s try and get it right this time.

I was trying. IF you want to get it right, there is almost a consensus among professionals 30 nm per hex is the right scale. And same hex combat should be preserved. But ONLY if you want to get it right.
You must think about more than just land combat, and also about the issues of navigating the map, and the memory required. Your proposal is not actually feasible at this time in memory terms. And I don't think it will ever be feasible in terms of the screen sizes possible for most users in terms of moving around the strategic map. If it becomes so, we will need new tecniques.

[el cid again]

LOL one division on an atoll? No way, most atolls could barely hold a regiment or battalion, let alone a division. Lets at least try to get it right if were going to impose limits.

I see. You are NOT interested in "getting it right" after all! There are some monsterous atols in the Pacific, and important. Consider Truk or our massive B-29 base. Or Kwajalein - just Beteo Island held a division sized force. If an atol is tiny, do not put it on the map at all. [Truk is a proper nation, and had a significant civil population amounting to a division in its own right.]

It might be a good idea to have a tiny islet sort of thing - and a major island - each with a different stacking limit. But IF you just have one, it has to be the big ones you have. They are where the air bases and ports are, and they matter.

[el cid again]

This can’t be based on history, as it was easy to get a lot more than three divisions into a 30 mile front in WWII.

Actually, it is based on history, and that is the norm in games of this sort.
But I am a rebel - I no longer use ANY stacking limits - because you are right - it is possible to put a lot of troops in an area. Let real considerations dictate how many troops go where. And if a player gets silly, and sends way too many, he just kills his transportation net, and gains no combat power over whatever the maximum level is. If you get technical, it varies for different armies. At one time a corps was the maximum number of men who could move from column to front formation in an entire day of walking. Various considerations make this not really the case by WWII - the very meaning of corps changed into more of a command concept. I am willing to get as detailed as you are - but I doubt Matrix is - since they have to strictly limit costs. But if they make it soft coded, we can do it for them for free - so go ahead - tell me how you want to limit overstacking? If I put a million men in a hex, do they engage as efficiently as if there were a more reasonable number? I CAN put a million men in a hex - but they cannot all be on the front line.

[el cid again]

Hell I remember wondering should I upgrade from 1Mb to 2 Mb of RAM......not to mention my old OAK 256K video card.

I used to build digital computers that cost $20,000 just for parts. They had 4 memory boards each with a whopping 4 K (1024 bits)! I dreamed of affording just a 4 K computer! [Now you know how old I am].
It took 5 or 6 guys 3 or 4 months to make such a machine - and Tektronix allowed us to use about $2 billion in plant for free - in the hope we would get smarter and the technology would take off. [Tek sells chips and wanted them to have a market!]

And my first computer used relay logic - like the very first real modern computer (invented by Prof Willy Messerschmidt - not something we ever admit in the USA) - only his had memory storage of 1 K - and mine more like 1/10 of a K. I did that as a child and didn't even know it was a computer!

[el cid again]

why not just use Kilometers instead, can use 60Km hex sides equals about 37.28 miles

60 km IS 30 nm per hex. Near enough you can pretend it is. Do either I don't care. Same same.

[keeferon01]

wow cid , I enjoy your flamboyance

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

This can’t be based on history, as it was easy to get a lot more than three divisions into a 30 mile front in WWII.

Actually, it is based on history, and that is the norm in games of this sort.
But I am a rebel - I no longer use ANY stacking limits - because you are right - it is possible to put a lot of troops in an area. Let real considerations dictate how many troops go where. And if a player gets silly, and sends way too many, he just kills his transportation net, and gains no combat power over whatever the maximum level is. If you get technical, it varies for different armies. At one time a corps was the maximum number of men who could move from column to front formation in an entire day of walking. Various considerations make this not really the case by WWII - the very meaning of corps changed into more of a command concept. I am willing to get as detailed as you are - but I doubt Matrix is - since they have to strictly limit costs. But if they make it soft coded, we can do it for them for free - so go ahead - tell me how you want to limit overstacking? If I put a million men in a hex, do they engage as efficiently as if there were a more reasonable number? I CAN put a million men in a hex - but they cannot all be on the front line.

You forgot one other significant point. Up to perhaps the 18th Century the more men the better..., but as firepower and range begins to develop rapidly in the 19th century, and exploded in the 20th Century, dispersion became the order of the day. With artillery and airpower adding to the deapth of the "beaten zone", there comes a point where the more men you put into an area the more casualties you take. As Cid ficticiously says, you could stand a million men in the hex, maybe more---but what you do is give your opponant a target they couldn't miss if they tried. The game allows unlimited stacking on Wake Atoll..., but in truth anything much over a Regement should just provide casualties for the defender and targets for the attacker. The same is true in the larger hexes. At some point additional troops don't provide any additional combat power, just targets.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

1760 yards per mile means a 10 mile hex is 17600 yards across.

Talk about being silly! The statute mile is used only in one country on the planet any more. It is not suitable for navigation - one can work out navigation in you head if you use nautical miles: a minute of latitude is always a nautical mile, a minute of longitude at the equator is as well. The manual says - and some game functions are coded assuming - nautical miles. [Consider ships: their speed is in "knots" and their range is in "nautical miles."] Whatever scale you advocate, please do not even consider using statute miles - American ignorance be damned. The world thinks in km and nautical miles (1 nm = 2 km, near enough). This is an international game with an international market. Time to grow up and also do things the easy way.

Another issue presented by the 10mile or 16km hex...

Just read this in Shattered Sword...

"Kido Butai's formation was becoming a much looser square, with as much as 8,000 meters(8km) between the carriers. The evidence suggests that BatDiv3 formed in column abreast the port flank of the box, while CruDiv 8 did the same to starboard. Nagara remained in the van, and the destroyers spread out as far as 20,000 meters(20km) from the carriers. BatDiv 3 and CruDiv 8 were themselves as much as 8,000 to 10,000 meters abeam the carriers."

p.121 - during the period before the dawn launch

Theoretically KB occupied 50km of ocean.

10 mile or 16 km hexes IMO would present a whole host of issues in daytime combat. KB would be spread over three 10 mile hexes.

[Adnan Meshuggi]

well... great.

So you solve the problem with "in one single hex you can put ANY ship"...
fine.

I vote for 10miles-hex or maybe 20km... more details, more possibilities...
we also could make a information system for each hex. If you conquer Palau, you find out how many troops you can put on the island. Say normal/dense... normal is the thing "normal" officers would do on the island, dense is the maximum effort. So if Wake says 5k/20k.. that means you can put 5000 men for "normal" and 20000 for dense... you decide.
The same for harbours... each hex got an harbor-size...
say Pearl got 200000tons, Truk 500.000 tons, etc... also for certain harbors certain levels of deplacement... i mean, if you have an bb with 10m deplacement but the harbor is only 5m, why should the bb be allowed to be IN the harbor ? Does it hover ?

With that you also can solve the problem of to many ships in one harbor.

[Mr.Frag]

Hexes???

Egads! No hexes!

Use a vector based system with a curved earth model so the distance between any two points is accurate. If you are going to do it, lets start with a sound model that removes all the normal errors that automatically get put in by having a flat world and trying to bend everything to fit!

Columbus didn't fall off the earth, why should we be doing so hundreds of years later? [:D]

[Sonny]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Hexes???

Egads! No hexes!

Use a vector based system with a curved earth model so the distance between any two points is accurate. If you are going to do it, lets start with a sound model that removes all the normal errors that automatically get put in by having a flat world and trying to bend everything to fit!

Columbus didn't fall off the earth, why should we be doing so hundreds of years later? [:D]

Way too hard for the player to visualize - especially on a map the size of WitP. It might work for air units and maybe ok for naval units, though clicking exactly on the port might be tough.

Land combat would be hell. My guys were in the mountains. No they were not. Were too! See the edge of that unit there? It is in the mountains so at least part of my unit should get the defensive bonus. Cross the river? No you didn't. You clicked right in the middle of the river so that is why your boys got chewed up in the attack.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Adnan Meshuggi

well... great.

So you solve the problem with "in one single hex you can put ANY ship"...
fine.

I vote for 10miles-hex or maybe 20km... more details, more possibilities...
we also could make a information system for each hex. If you conquer Palau, you find out how many troops you can put on the island. Say normal/dense... normal is the thing "normal" officers would do on the island, dense is the maximum effort. So if Wake says 5k/20k.. that means you can put 5000 men for "normal" and 20000 for dense... you decide.
The same for harbours... each hex got an harbor-size...
say Pearl got 200000tons, Truk 500.000 tons, etc... also for certain harbors certain levels of deplacement... i mean, if you have an bb with 10m deplacement but the harbor is only 5m, why should the bb be allowed to be IN the harbor ? Does it hover ?

With that you also can solve the problem of to many ships in one harbor.

So do you really want to plot the movement of every single ship, every day?

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Hexes???

Egads! No hexes!

Use a vector based system with a curved earth model so the distance between any two points is accurate. If you are going to do it, lets start with a sound model that removes all the normal errors that automatically get put in by having a flat world and trying to bend everything to fit!

Columbus didn't fall off the earth, why should we be doing so hundreds of years later? [:D]

You could stil use hexes...Think Epcot Center.

[pad152]

A bigger map is not possible for many reasons, one of which is the AI, if you think the AI is bad now, just try to design one for a bigger map(more bases, more ships, more airgroups, etc).[8|]

Did anyone every think a new WITP game might be more of a UV scale? Smaller map, more focus, not bigger! [:-]

[jwilkerson]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Hexes???

Egads! No hexes!

Use a vector based system with a curved earth model so the distance between any two points is accurate. If you are going to do it, lets start with a sound model that removes all the normal errors that automatically get put in by having a flat world and trying to bend everything to fit!

Columbus didn't fall off the earth, why should we be doing so hundreds of years later? [:D]

This ( no hexes ) works for air/naval systems ( to wit Harpoon ) but I worry a bit about ground units. They may not be "points" like planes and ships are ( at least as planes and ships were modeled in Harpoon ) .. but is an Infantry Division a point ? If not, then it is an "area" which moves across the terrain and bumps into other "areas" moving across the terrain. Some of these "areas" might be moving through more than one terrain type at a time. Not that this isn't in theory do-able ( if we can think of it we can do it - is an early Joe rule of software ) but I worry about the processing time ( and/or additional memory ) for handling multitudinous moving "areas" in a "continuous coordinate system".

Can we think of a game approaching the scale of WITP that has land, sea and air elements and uses a continuous system ?


Also searching ( a floating point calculation in continuous coordinates as compared to an integer calculation in discrete coordinates ) might take a little longer, but given the robust floating point capabilities of PC CPUs ... this might not be a significant issue. Further investigation into this delta is probably warranted.

But these are the two issues I can think of with continuous coordinates in a WITP game ( life is full of trade-offs ) though more detailed analysis may reveal that we can work with these issues. But I'm reluctant to jump on the bandwagon without such analysis.

[Admiral DadMan]

ORIGINAL: treespider

Another issue presented by the 10mile or 16km hex...

Just read this in Shattered Sword...

"Kido Butai's formation was becoming a much looser square, with as much as 8,000 meters(8km) between the carriers. The evidence suggests that BatDiv3 formed in column abreast the port flank of the box, while CruDiv 8 did the same to starboard. Nagara remained in the van, and the destroyers spread out as far as 20,000 meters(20km) from the carriers. BatDiv 3 and CruDiv 8 were themselves as much as 8,000 to 10,000 meters abeam the carriers."

p.121 - during the period before the dawn launch

Theoretically KB occupied 50km of ocean.

10 mile or 16 km hexes IMO would present a whole host of issues in daytime combat. KB would be spread over three 10 mile hexes.

This was going to be my point, you'd have to have stacking limits on CVs in a hex...

[Admiral DadMan]

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

Interesting notion..., but I would guess it will come under the heading of "too much of a good thing". It would certainly make it hard for a sub to ever find much to even try to attack...

Not if they allowed subs to patrol a zone instead of a single hex during a turns resolution phase. The zone could be defined by the player even, so players would plot say 7 hexes (center hex and all surrounding hexes) and the sub would randomly patrol within that zone as the turn is executed.

This is a reason deciding on a scale now is so important. Don’t design a new WitP based on current models, decide its scale and design models to fit the new scale.

Jim

OMG, don't get me started on the Subs...

US Subs sank more than half of IJN ships (merchant and warship) and in my opinion are poorly modeled in WitP