Agendas

[KG Erwin]

I'll come clean on this -- my agenda has been, is still is, to encourage more play of Pacific Theater battles. This was behind my efforts to improve the USMC OOBs in 8.2, 8.3 and now in the unofficial SPWAW Multi-Mod. Flashfyre has done much valuable work in the latest OOBs, too.

This theater, scenario and campaign-wise, has never been neglected, but I somehow get the feeling that it is still underappreciated.

On tactics in ALL theaters: The armor enthusiasts are out there, BUT, I speak for the players who enjoy using combined-arms task forces, and try to come up with the best balance of forces for their battles & campaigns.

To MY mind, using a balanced force of all arms is the way to win, with support arms being added to accomplish a particular mission.

[PimpYourAFV]

KG Erwin, never forget, my friend, that the rifleman and the cavalry, horse cavalry with a well bred horse, are the core of an army. Anything else is either a toy or a luxurious accessory which cannot fail in not providing a reasonable economical return per dollar of resource spent in the making.

[KG Erwin]

ORIGINAL: TokyoBoyTensai


KG Erwin, never forget, my friend, that the rifleman and the cavalry, horse cavalry with a well bred horse, are the core of an army. Anything else is either a toy or a luxurious accessory which cannot fail in not providing a reasonable economical return per dollar of resource spent in the making.

In th 19th century, maybe, but in the 20th century, it has been consisently proven that a combined arms mix of armor, infantry and support elements is what wins battles. We agree to disagree, so until you give me a 20th century example of your ideas being successful, I'll stick with my beliefs. [:D]

[PimpYourAFV]

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin
In th 19th century, maybe, but in the 20th century, it has been consisently proven that a combined arms mix of armor, infantry and support elements is what wins battles. We agree to disagree, so until you give me a 20th century example of your ideas being successful, I'll stick with my beliefs. [:D]

Whew! That would take a few books or more but I'll put down just a small number which will hopefully suffice.

Successful use of riflemen and cavalry in the 20th century...

WW1 was dominated by these arms by both sides and the ones with the most grit and determination were the winners. The Canadians at Vichy were probably the finest examples of the time. Tanks were used with some success in late war but owe this only to the German high command's refusal to allow AT ordinance to be issued as well the heavy guns weren't moved forward.

1917, the British overrun the Turks at Beersheba in a very successful cavalry charge.

WW2 saw riflemen used throughout by all nations. More combatants were killed by rifles than by any other small arms in the war. Cavalry were used on the eastern front sometimes with shocking effect. The Romanians were well reputed for their excellent cavalry.


Chinese used riflemen armed with a slightly altered version of the Russian mosin nagant rifle from WW2, with no tanks or air support, to push the heavily armed UN forces from North Korea down to where the border to South Korea is now. The Americans were also still using the M1 Garand rifle which was also used in WW2. Rifles have longevity.

General Giap led the Vietnamese to victory against both the French and the Americans using riflemen as a large part of his forces. (please note: I consider both the French and Americans who fought in Vietnam to be some of the most admirable infantry units in modern history)

In Afghanistan, the modern armies of both the Soviet Union and the Taliban were defeated by the cavalry and rifleman armies of the Afgans. Of course these mountain fighters also were supplied with antiair missiles and other modern weapons to counter the Soviet tanks and jetbombers, but the cavalry and riflemen made up most of their numbers and were the key to victory.


there's even a bonus added to my reply for you Erwin....

21st century shows promise now that American military chiefs are considering replacing their big heavy tanks with lighter APC vehicles which are more combat efficient. The Abrams is a very good tank but using it on the battlefield is the same as having battleships in the navy: they both are like showing up to a demolition derby in a Lamborghini.

Perhaps this is the first step in realizing wars are won by rifles and cavalry, not by newfangled toys which punish the taxpayers and get poor results.

[m10bob]

Like the man said...."Never argue with an idiot...He will only drag you down to his level, and kill you with experience."

[omegaall]

ORIGINAL: TokyoBoyTensai
1917, the British overrun the Turks at Beersheba in a very successful cavalry charge.

It was NOT the BRITISH!

It was the Australian Light Horse and They are NOT cavalry.



Don't insult them by calling them Cavalry!!!!!!!!!!!

[Warrior]

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

I'll come clean on this -- my agenda has been, is still is, to encourage more play of Pacific Theater battles. This was behind my efforts to improve the USMC OOBs in 8.2, 8.3 and now in the unofficial SPWAW Multi-Mod. Flashfyre has done much valuable work in the latest OOBs, too.

This theater, scenario and campaign-wise, has never been neglected, but I somehow get the feeling that it is still underappreciated.

On tactics in ALL theaters: The armor enthusiasts are out there, BUT, I speak for the players who enjoy using combined-arms task forces, and try to come up with the best balance of forces for their battles & campaigns.

To MY mind, using a balanced force of all arms is the way to win, with support arms being added to accomplish a particular mission.

I'm working on a new one now.

[PimpYourAFV]

Is there not one member of this forum who can provide an intelligent answer or something positive for a change? [&:]

[Wild Bill]

Glenn, have you played the Choiseul Campaign or the Shimada scenario yet? That is Pacific, about as Pacific/Asia as it gets.

There are about 50 scenarios, maybe more, in the game itself and more are being added. I myself have done quite a few.

A partial list>
Scen001, 101
Scen012-14 (3 in a row)
Scen043-054 (That is 12 more)
Scen60-79 (Tat is 20 more)
Scen214-216 (another 3)
Scen328

That comes to 40 that I have done. There are also scenarios from Redleg, Warrior and some others on the Pacific.

Then there are the campaigns:

Guadalcanal (B Hodgman)
Yangtze River Patrol (B Hodgman)
Deadly Diversion (WBW)
Flesh and Steel (WBW)

And a short upcoming one on Okinawa.

All this materials start with Wake Island, to nearly all Pacific islands, India, Burma, Malaya, Indochina, and more. They extend from the 1930s through to the end of WW2. They vary in size from small quick play to long big battles.

In my campaign list there are 25 campaigns, four of them on the Pacific, so that would be about 20% of the campaigns are on the Pacific, that would be one in five.

Then there is Watchtower Mega Campaign.

So all in all, my personal opnion is that there is pretty good coverage.

And there is more coming.

WB

[Wild Bill]

Oh I think that there are a few logical, level-headed people left. They just don't get into these discussions that lead to name calling and insulting remarks. I guess that they are above all of that.

Yes, some good, nice people still move through these battle-scarred hallways.

Wild Bill

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: Wild Bill

Oh I think that there are a few logical, level-headed people left. They just don't get into these discussions that lead to name calling and insulting remarks. I guess that they are above all of that.

Yes, some good, nice people still move through these battle-scarred hallways.

Wild Bill

'Nuff said............[&o]

[Swamprat]

Is there not one member of this forum who can provide an intelligent answer or something positive for a change

In other words, "can't everyone on this forum see that I'm right?"


In a word, no.

[Orzel Bialy]

Amen. [8D]

[Wild Bill]

Hold on, TokyoBoy. I'm looking for one.

"CALL FOR LEVEL-HEADED INTELLIGENT PERSON!" "CALL FOR LEVEL-HEADED INTELLIGENT PERSON!"

I'll keep looking...

WB

[Wild Bill]

Cavalry is more of an ideal or a concept than it is a vehicle or an animal. I remember when retired General Gavin wrote an article, "Cavalry, and I don't Mean Horses." It came out in the late 50s or early 60s and was the advocate of the helicopter becoming the 20th Century horse.

Thus it was I suppose, and fittingly so, that the 1st Cavalry Division should become 1st Cavalry Division (Airmobile).

Its record in Vietnam speaks for itself. It was one of the most despised and feared units by the VC and NVA.

Now with the new mix of APCs, helicopters and ATVs, Cavalry continue to play a vital role. Find the enemy, get a fix on him and his strength and then sock it to him.

When Lee lost his eyes, he lost the fight. Knowing what and where the enemy is determines the reaction of the adversary. Not knowing can mean defeat.

Wild Bill

[azraelck]

You came to the wrong place[:D]

On topic (whats that?), I've just never managed to get into the Pacific Theater. When I was younger I was into the submarine actions in that theater, but now I'm more into the Western front in europe and in N. Africa. nothing against the USMC or the Pacific Theater, but it's never really interested me.

[Wild Bill]

Now we return to the original subject Gunny presented to us: a proper appreciation of the Pacific/Asiatic Theaters of World War II.

In my many years of wargaming I've come to realize that the East Front is the forerunner of interest in WW2 fighting. That is a fact. It won't be changed by anything we do. The scope, the units, the armor involved are gaming magnets that draw so many to the fight.

Then comes the West Front, again Germany vs her opponents, UK, USA, France, etc. (Sorry for the etc, but of course it includes great men. My space and memory are limited).

Then in about a tied position are the Pacific and the Mediterranean theaters of war, which include North Africa.

THen there is a group that will play 'em all. They don't care. If it is a good, challenging scrap, they doff the steel pot and head to the sound of the guns.

I've learned through my own experience that this is pretty much the order of preference and I've also learned that no matter how many ball-busting scenarios and campaigns I do on the Pacific, if folks aren't interested, they just aren't.

So I make them for those who do, men like you Gunny, and a number of others, like TokyoBoy and still more.

I would say, however, that the fighting in the Pacific and Asia is a lot more interesting than folks might realize. Try some of the scenarios just to find out for yourself.

Wild Bill

[Wild Bill]

Interesting Azraelck I was writing my reply while you were writing yoursand submitted it almost simultanerously. We both agreed to go back to the original subject. I mention cavalry because it was mentioned in this thread, but as you see I returned also to the main theme.

Your reply just proves my point. And I wrote it before I read it. So that is how it is and that is how it should be accepted. I can accept it. I know what I like just as you do and we can both play the game and enjoy it, you with your marbles and me with mine. That is great. There is something for everyone in Steel Panthers World at War and that is what makes it great...an all time winner in my book.

WB

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: Wild Bill

Now we return to the original subject Gunny presented to us: a proper appreciation of the Pacific/Asiatic Theaters of World War II.

In my many years of wargaming I've come to realize that the East Front is the forerunner of interest in WW2 fighting. That is a fact. It won't be changed by anything we do. The scope, the units, the armor involved are gaming magnets that draw so many to the fight.

Then comes the West Front, again Germany vs her opponents, UK, USA, France, etc. (Sorry for the etc, but of course it includes great men. My space and memory are limited).

Then in about a tied position are the Pacific and the Mediterranean theaters of war, which include North Africa.

THen there is a group that will play 'em all. They don't care. If it is a good, challenging scrap, they doff the steel pot and head to the sound of the guns.

I've learned through my own experience that this is pretty much the order of preference and I've also learned that no matter how many ball-busting scenarios and campaigns I do on the Pacific, if folks aren't interested, they just aren't.

So I make them for those who do, men like you Gunny, and a number of others, like TokyoBoy and still more.

I would say, however, that the fighting in the Pacific and Asia is a lot more interesting than folks might realize. Try some of the scenarios just to find out for yourself.

Wild Bill

I too wanted to be John Wayne fighting on the sandy (and sunny) beaches in the Pacific as a kid, but since that theatre was SO diverse in how to actually fight it, (MUCH AIR AND NAVAL INVOLVEMENT DAILY IN MOST ARENAS,DIRECTLY), that for me, the only way to really appreciate the whole picture of that theatre was to acquire WITP,(another tremendous title by Matrixgames).
I have yet to complete a single campaign though, because it is a true tactical/strategic MONSTER wargame, with as many afficianados, (and opinions and die-hard players), as SP has..
SPWAW still has the means to assemble the forces to tactically fight out the battles of WITP, and maybe some day some enterprising soul will figure out how to do it, affectively.[;)]

[Mac67]

ORIGINAL: Wild Bill

There is something for everyone in Steel Panthers World at War and that is what makes it great...an all time winner in my book.

WB

This is what i love about SPWAW, unlike many other tactical wargames, it covers all the theaters of the war and gives you the chance to play not just the Major combatants but the Minor ones too. I for one enjoy to play in all the theaters, though I must admit I would like to see more with the British! I would like to give my thanks to all the people, such as Wild Bill, who have put so much time and effort into making this such a great game. And the sweetest thing is it is all for free! How could anyone complain? [;)]