Ammo rate of usage

[Massattack]

I'm out of CMBO/BB/MK quite a while, but always wished for a unit sop on fire usage. The units in the CM games just fired until they were low on ammo. It would be nice if this could be graded a bit, a la HTTR (max aggression etc settings which determined the rate of fire poured on the enemy) Hope something like this is included so we don't end up with units using up all their ammo prematurely.

Regards

[Yoozername]

Since the game has shorter intervals between firing orders (40 seconds instead of 60), it will naturally allow a decrease in ammo usage.

But for weapons like mortars/guns, I would want a slow/medium/fast ROF command. If I could order specific # of rounds fired also, that would be even better. Ordering 4 rounds smoke slow or 8 rounds HE fast, etc.

But for units like MGs, I am not so sure if its realistic under certain circumstances. Especially when the enemy is coming and proximity is increasing. Units will go for broke and burn up as much ammo as the weapon can cycle.

But for something like area fire, it would be nice to order MGs to slow fire and give them multiple locations to fire at. In 40 seconds an air cooled MG (like the US 30 cal) could expend about 40-50 rounds. This may translate into 10-12 bursts. I would like to be able to assign 3-4 'locations' to area fire at.

A related topic is 'cease-fire'. I would like to see an order that commands a firing unit to stop firing. There may be a delay as the unit gets its fire under control. I do not know of a game that has a cease-fire command. stopping area fire may actually be quick. Stopping an HMG doing a final protactive fire at a human wave impossible.

Likewise, there should be delays when giving fire orders. There is just robotic obedience in CM. Asking a unit to fire at an enemy, when other enemies are closer, is asking A LOT. There should be penalties also in case the closer enemy fires at them. Increased pinning, morale effects (LT is INSANE!).

[madorosh]

ORIGINAL: Yoozername

A related topic is 'cease-fire'. I would like to see an order that commands a firing unit to stop firing. There may be a delay as the unit gets its fire under control. I do not know of a game that has a cease-fire command. stopping area fire may actually be quick. Stopping an HMG doing a final protactive fire at a human wave impossible.

CM accomplishes this (or attempts to) with covered arcs. How do you institute a cease fire command if all the firing is predicated on fire orders being given every 60 seconds (or 40, as the case may be). The only way TO do it is by curtailing the types of circumstances in which units fire - those are done with fire commands. I don't see the utility in a "cease fire" command if you can only implement it once every 40 seconds. If at the end of a turn you want a unit to cease fire, give it another fire order or SOP or whatever system you come up; if the target it is engaging is outside your fire orders, then fire ceases - and this can apply over the whole course of a turn, not just once every minute.

[Yoozername]

You really are so offbase that I am almost befuddled.

The CM covered arc is an attempt at getting units to open fire at certain ranges. It is sort of an SOP. Are you really saying that you think the CA is some sort of ceasefire mechanism? Its a bad one then if a target unit moves out of the arc but closer to the unit.

I am not looking for 'utility'. I am looking at modeling reality. And the reality is that units that are firing are NOT robots that will immediately respond to a players demands. In fact, firing units (IMO) are out of higher command and control somewhat.

Your odd argument about every 40 or 60 seconds can be applied to any aspect of the game. Sorry, the time slice is a game parameter in this type of WEGO situation. I like that the player input is 33% quicker in PC than CM though. Thanks for sharing the obvious.

I never liked the cherry-picking fire commands. I always wanted a generic fire order that relied on the unit choosing its own target (which the player may or may not get to even know). In fact, it would pick its greatest threat more than likely. IF a player insists on cherry picking, then there should be some associated delay in that firing happening. But the omnicontrol that players like in their games is being infringed upon.

[madorosh]

ORIGINAL: Yoozername

You really are so offbase that I am almost befuddled.

The CM covered arc is an attempt at getting units to open fire at certain ranges. It is sort of an SOP. Are you really saying that you think the CA is some sort of ceasefire mechanism? Its a bad one then if a target unit moves out of the arc but closer to the unit.

I am not looking for 'utility'. I am looking at modeling reality. And the reality is that units that are firing are NOT robots that will immediately respond to a players demands. In fact, firing units (IMO) are out of higher command and control somewhat.

Your odd argument about every 40 or 60 seconds can be applied to any aspect of the game. Sorry, the time slice is a game parameter in this type of WEGO situation. I like that the player input is 33% quicker in PC than CM though. Thanks for sharing the obvious.

I never liked the cherry-picking fire commands. I always wanted a generic fire order that relied on the unit choosing its own target (which the player may or may not get to even know). In fact, it would pick its greatest threat more than likely. IF a player insists on cherry picking, then there should be some associated delay in that firing happening. But the omnicontrol that players like in their games is being infringed upon.

Fire orders remain in effect over that slice of time, 40 seconds or 60 seconds. A stop command is a single instance, so what good is having it if you can only do it once a minute? [&:] The workaround is fire control orders.

[Yoozername]

Its this simple; I do not think that units can instantaneously stop OR change targets OR recieve orders that easily when firing. I want to model how difficult that is (which can vary as I explained before).

I further think that until a unit stops firing, giving it new orders is a bit unrealistic. There should be penalties involved if nothing else. An example might be 2 German squads side by side. One is firing, the other is not. Both equidistant from the platoon HQ. Both are given Assault orders (identical in length, etc). If nothing else, I would want the command delay to be longer for the firing squad. Why? to model that it is out of C&C somewhat (noise, preoccupation, target fascination, whatever).

You seem (but who knows) seem to think I want to model something like a 'Conserve Ammo' SOP (which would be cool also).

I am addressing Command and Control. You must have CONTROL BEFORE you can have COMMAND. Units that are firing are preoccupied and NOT in command and control.

If I could draw a picture I would. Hopefully this will do.

[Yoozername]

Regarding delays....

Yes, but it's pretty straightforward. The Soviet side has a command delay of a phase (40 seconds) if it changes from one order "type" to another. For example, changing from one movement order to another would not cause the delay, but changing from move to fire or fire to move types would. Envision the guy waving his flags or shouting at his men. There is no delay for the German side in terms of on-field commands.

Regards,

- Erik

This seems to confirm that there is some sort of penalty like I am asking for. A bit simplistic but still an improvement. I still feel that the Germans should get a time penalty (less than a phase) for switching order type. 10/20 seconds depending on C&C parameters.

If I am reading the description correctly, the German gets immediate execution of his orders every 80 seconds. There is none of the 'compounded' delays like there is in CM. By that I mean delay time length based on multiple move commands/being in C&C/good-order/etc.

It would seem to me that the German would then give elaborate movement orders every time he could. There being no penalty and he could modify these moving orders on the reaction phase and cancel them if needed on the next Orders Phase. I am assuming that the player gives the 'strings' like he does in CM. PC may just give a destination and the AI figures the route to take.