Feasibility of eary Australia Invasion

[Mike Solli]

I agree Nik. I'd much rather have that nasty Allied player try invading my position rather than have to support my postion by ship while he marches to attack me.

[DuckofTindalos]

Absolutely. Invading Oz is an overextension of an already catastrophically overextended Japanese military.

[Speedysteve]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

With his female attachment? Not bloody likely, considering her nationality...

LOL. Her Brother trains every day for the possibility of an 'altercation' with a Greek........

[niceguy2005]

Maybe I missed this in your original post, but is this a PBEM game or against the AI. I'm thinking you are playing the AI, if so I say sure, go for it. All comments above are correct.

In my game against the AI, I am going for complete map domination, which means I must beat OZ at some point. You are right that it is easier to do it early, but if you do this, I think you're going to have to get to Sydney and southern OZ very quickly to cut off the reinforcements. In my game I am going for PI, Malaya, Borneo, Sulawesi and the Solomons in Phase I. Phase II will have to be Burma, the rest of the DEI and either OZ or India, and I am thinking OZ, before the US can reinforce it much.

The problem with going for OZ too early is logistics and resources. You will sooner or later need the resources from DEI and if you haven't secured those you will be in trouble. Also, you will have a very long supply line from Japan that you will have to protect, not to mention the massive amounts of fuel you will use to move an army large enough to take OZ.

By the way, if this is a PBEM game, it is pure suicide to go for the eastern shore of OZ.

[Rob Brennan UK]

Dont forget the resources in OZ will help produse supply in australia that wont need to be shipped. some in cairns and townsville which would be nice.

However vs a player .. NOT A HOPE IN HE$$..

[Nikademus]

Has anyone ever taken Eastern/Southeastern Oz in a non AI game?

[mogami]

Hi, Speaking from experiance I think WITP poves it's is Posh Psoh to try to invade the USA. (Harder then it looks) Speaking from experiance I think WITP proves any Japanese plan that omits getting the SRA as quickly (and cheaply) as possible is fatal to Japan in the long term.
While I suck as a player I do a pretty good job planning the early months for Japan. (it's after May 1942 that kills me)
I stink as an Allied player because I don't react to these wild Japanese adventures early in game and I pretty much lose interest as Allies if the Japanese play for auto victory in 43
(I say OK have fun lets get it over) I don't deny players have the right to play in this manner it just holds no interest for me.

I like WITP when the Japanese player is attempting to conduct the Japanese war plan and does not screw up the system. Japan is supposed to take the SRA and then defend it to the end. Japan takes places on the map to aid in prolonging the defense. I posted before how I think the Japanese should behave. (I know thepoor Japanese player has to accept at the start that he will likely lose the game. He has to be the type that likes difficult defense not rapid exploit of the system and knowledge of Allied deployments)

My next set of PBEM games will be one where I find a third party who is good (and fast) with the editor and both sides before turn 1 do a free deployment. (units would have to remain in their HQ areas) This way the Japanese player would really have to plan how he conducted the war because he would not know before hand where the Allied units were located. (He would have to write out turn 1 orders before he received the file and send his turn 1 to the moderator who would confirm it matched so even if he peeked at Allied deployments it would not effect his turn 1) Both sides would have a number of PP to use to change HQ of units. But Dutch would have to remain in DEI and Chinese in China and so on.
(Would love to see expression on sneaky Japanese players face when he teleports units to Noumea on turn 1 and finds 3 Allied divisions there. )

[niceguy2005]

Mogami, this sounds fascinating. I'd love to hear how this works for you.

On the other hand, would it really be fair to let the allied player muck with their deployment much. First turn surprise is on of the few things the Japanese player really has going for him. I could see all kinds of aggresive defensive deployments, which would be a typical.

[mogami]

Hi, Agressive forward defense would work against Japanese who did shoddy planning. The Japanese would retain their real advantages but would have to do without the advantage gained from the turn 1 teleport (I'd let the Japanese do this if he was willing to take the risk) And he would not be able to do this kind of planning

"Lets see whats on Mu-Mu Atoll, only one baseforce with a value of 20 So I send the 333rd Special Naval Landing force value of 60. Over here on Gimmie-Gimmie is a size 3 airfield I can build to size 5 and it's empty so I'll send this little Naval Guard on 1 transport and this baseforce on another, I can cut off enemy ships trying to leave SRA by dropping 50 paratroop on this empty airfield and flying in support and a Betty Daitai, He has 50 fighters here so I'll assign 2 Daitai as escorts blah blah blah"

Instead of this kind of planning

"I need this base to provide air control but it is not currently inside my air range so I can't just teleport there because I don't know what might be waiting so I have to capture this base here and build an airfield. It's inside my air range so I can cover my movement there. Now I might have to send a Brigade or more so I'll need transports and fuel and escorts to stage while I conduct a few recon flights to get an idea of the oppositon. "

Free deployment would pretty much take China and Soviets out of picture because instead of being scattered all about and in bad postions there would exist a real defensive line. I want the game WITP to be played in the Pacific. (I hate playing "The Great Land war in China while KB mucks about")

[el cid again]

Only in the game can this even be considered...like the India or North America invasions. Utter hosh posh!

IJA agreed with respect to invading Australia. It estimated 10 divisions would be required - and could think of no way to justify that many. IJN had an advocate of this move AFTER the death of Adm Yamamoto - (it is in the diary of his former chief of staff who replaced him - Adm Ugaki). They ended up planning to cut off Australia - and siezing valuable minerals - at New Calidonia - and Fiji.

However, an invasion of India was entirely feasible, accoring to revisionist European and Indian scholarship. Japan needed to permit the Indian National Army form up as divisions, but the idea was certainly popular enough to implement. There was considerable trouble when Indians met, and numbers were executed. The entire Indian National Congress spent the war in prison - its demands for a commitment to independence as a condition of supporting the war being regarded as treason. Yet independence came anyway - the move was foolish. The Atlas of Revolutions claims it took 160 battalions to garrison India. There was a major famine in India - and the decision NOT to send food (shipping was "too valuable for the war effort" to save mere Indians) killed any chance Britain had of retaining the colony. This decision meant that vast numbers of Indians would have taken any option. Japan did grant independence to a small bit of liberated India (the Nicobar Islands), but it did not permit either of two Indian National Armies to fully stand to.

[el cid again]

"Lets see whats on Mu-Mu Atoll, only one baseforce with a value of 20 So I send the 333rd Special Naval Landing force value of 60.

Apparently you do not know about the Andromedon Affair!

There was this German raider in the Indian Ocean ran into a merchantman (His Majesty's Ship Andromedon) that put up an amazing fight - and one of his shells (a 5.9) killed the entire bridge team and armed security party. On that bridge was found a set of weighted sacks not thrown over by the dead men - containin a report written by the former governor of Malaya - that is a copy of the report en route to Singapore. It contained everything the British knew about defenses in the region - and it was grim.

The captain suspended raider operations, hid his raider and prize, and took a captured Norwegian tanker to Japan. He sent his find to Germany via Russian Postal Telegraph using commercial code - and got permission to give it to Japan - together with details of its capture. This event was a direct factor in the decision to fight made not long after (in July 1941). Japan had been planning operations against Hawaii since 1910 and 70% of the population there was Japanese. Japan began collecting intel on the SRA in 1938, using pearl fisehrmen, ships crew and business people. It obtained significant local support - including an RAF staff officer in Malaya.
It DID know what was in many places in detail!

[mogami]

IJN had an advocate of this move AFTER the death of Adm Yamamoto - (it is in the diary of his former chief of staff who replaced him - Adm Ugaki).

Hi, Sheesh what was he smoking? After the death of Yamamoto means after Japan had lost their CV and after Allies were beating the snot out of them in South and SouthWest Pacific. Now they are going to try to cut off Oz?
"Ugaki go to the back of the class your the weakest link"

As for India, well India got most of it's food from Burma and fishing. When Burma was lost the British decided it was dangerous to have so many fishing boats in Indian Ocean and confiscated them all. The two together brought on the famine. So Japan could feed India by giving them their boats back and sending the rice from Burma. But it would still take 160 Japanese Bns to garrison the place. Because unless the Japanese really changed how they treated occupied peoples they would have problems. But they would need to crush the Commonwealth forces. You can't depend on the Indians throwing them out for you.

I don't see any realistic magic answer for Japan. "we take this place we win" To win a war you need to destroy the ability of the enemy to fight. You can hope to destroy their will to fight but the will to fight only goes away if there is an alternative that appears better. If you put someone in a life or death battle and hope he loses his will your crazy. You have to give him a better option. He you offer freedom in return for help and then withhold the freedom your going to have a revolt. And revolts don't lose their will you have to crush them. (They have already decided it is better to fight and win or die then continue with the current condition) This is where debates about whether or not Japan or Germany could ever "WIN" the war lose me because niether ever gave their opponents any alternative. If you can't surrender without losing anything you fight till you win or die.
Japan and Germany were both given alternative "quit and have peace" that they eventually were able to accept.

[mogami]

Hi, Can you confirm the spelling "Andromedon" no such ship exists in registery of British Merchant ships from 1792 to 1993. There are 2 frigates named HMS Andromeda (1897) - a Diadem-class cruiser
HMS Andromeda (F57) - a Leander-class frigate
But no ship in any merchant marine I can find named Andromedon.

[witpqs]

Mogami,

Very wise insight. The only place I will disagree with you is that, while in reality they (Japan and Germany) didn't give their opponents a choice, their propoganda was different. The propoganda was designed to affect their opponents' perceptions, because people make decisions based on their perceptions of what reality is rather than on what reality actually is.

[Nikademus]

don't see any realistic magic answer for Japan. "we take this place we win"

how about Washington DC?

[;)]

[mogami]

Hi, If the Japanese can take and hold washington DC then they have already destroyed the American abilty to fight. If they just drop 50 paratroops there then we would wait for them to finish shooting congressmen and then throw them out.

[Nikademus]

that was your mistake....instead of landing in Canada you should have landed on base United States.

[matchwood]

ORIGINAL: veji1


Honnestly you would probably end up in mid-late 1942 with no oil left, an exposed under belly and a big useless desert island under your boot...

Haha Australia = big useless desert island

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

"Lets see whats on Mu-Mu Atoll, only one baseforce with a value of 20 So I send the 333rd Special Naval Landing force value of 60.

Apparently you do not know about the Andromedon Affair!

There was this German raider in the Indian Ocean ran into a merchantman (His Majesty's Ship Andromedon) that put up an amazing fight - and one of his shells (a 5.9) killed the entire bridge team and armed security party. On that bridge was found a set of weighted sacks not thrown over by the dead men - containin a report written by the former governor of Malaya - that is a copy of the report en route to Singapore. It contained everything the British knew about defenses in the region - and it was grim.

The captain suspended raider operations, hid his raider and prize, and took a captured Norwegian tanker to Japan. He sent his find to Germany via Russian Postal Telegraph using commercial code - and got permission to give it to Japan - together with details of its capture. This event was a direct factor in the decision to fight made not long after (in July 1941). Japan had been planning operations against Hawaii since 1910 and 70% of the population there was Japanese. Japan began collecting intel on the SRA in 1938, using pearl fisehrmen, ships crew and business people. It obtained significant local support - including an RAF staff officer in Malaya.
It DID know what was in many places in detail!

CID Where did you get the figure of 70% for the Japanese Population in Hawaii? Sounds WAY high. And of course, they proved incredably faithfull...., to the US.

And while information on British defenses in Malaya would certainly be of use, an awfull lot could have changed between June and December, so Mogami's points are still valid. The Japanese certainly had a good idea of how much was available in a theatre like Malaya or the P.I., exactly where it would be on the day of the attack wasn't a known factor. So a degree of uncertaincy as Mogami suggests would be a valid way of preventing exactly the kind of play he mentioned.

[anarchyintheuk]

The 1940 census lists the percentage of Japanese population for Hawaii as 37-38%. It doesn't show what percentage of that number were US citizens.

Go ahead and invade Aussieland. Just let us know how you do.