Modified Agano Design C-44

[el cid again]

If the planned construction program had taken place, in its final form,
there would have been two light cruisers of the C-44 type laid down in time to see WWII service (and eventually 3 others):

This ship is very fast: 37.5 knots

It has an extra 15 cm turret: 4xtwins vice the 3 on the Agano.

It has 8 of the very fine 3 inch 60s (sort of Japanese 3 inch 50s, a
USN gun too late for war service - high performance - using the same
fire control computers and radars as the 10 cm guns of the famous AA destroyers)

It has the same 8 24 inch TT as the Agano, but no ASW suite.

It would first have come up with 3x3 25 mm - and probably later have gone over to 6 triples on each side - just as Agano did.

So in RHSBBO not only does IJN have the option of building two Ibuki type CA, but also two C-44 CL (on top of the 4 historical Aganos and Oyodo). There is likely to be a second Oyodo - and possibly some CLAAs - at least modified old CLs with AA guns - but perhaps also some which have the same main battery as the AA destroyers - 8 10 cm guns 4x2 - as well as 8 of those 3 inch 60s - and a true AAFDC. But analysis of design time, long lead time, production time, and resources is required to see if this could have occurred by 1946? These programs were supposed to produce a long list of ships - by 1950 - many of them do not count in our scenarios.

[akdreemer]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

If the planned construction program had taken place, in its final form,
there would have been two light cruisers of the C-44 type laid down in time to see WWII service (and eventually 3 others):

This ship is very fast: 37.5 knots

It has an extra 15 cm turret: 4xtwins vice the 3 on the Agano.

It has 8 of the very fine 3 inch 60s (sort of Japanese 3 inch 50s, a
USN gun too late for war service - high performance - using the same
fire control computers and radars as the 10 cm guns of the famous AA destroyers)

It has the same 8 24 inch TT as the Agano, but no ASW suite.

It would first have come up with 3x3 25 mm - and probably later have gone over to 6 triples on each side - just as Agano did.

So in RHSBBO not only does IJN have the option of building two Ibuki type CA, but also two C-44 CL (on top of the 4 historical Aganos and Oyodo). There is likely to be a second Oyodo - and possibly some CLAAs - at least modified old CLs with AA guns - but perhaps also some which have the same main battery as the AA destroyers - 8 10 cm guns 4x2 - as well as 8 of those 3 inch 60s - and a true AAFDC. But analysis of design time, long lead time, production time, and resources is required to see if this could have occurred by 1946? These programs were supposed to produce a long list of ships - by 1950 - many of them do not count in our scenarios.

I was wondering if you were going to add these ships. I too had added four to my personal mod. BTW, what names were assigned to the C-44's? I also added the 16 units of the Shimakaze class, as well as other destroyers. What I do not have are names for them... Using hull numbers only as from what I have read the Japanese did not assign names till the ship was launched.

[Monter_Trismegistos]

Well, before adding C-44s I would add 2nd Oyodo first - at least it had its name assigned: Niyodo.

Also I dont know nothing about those C-44... Are they from 1942 Naval Programme? Like 8 new Oyodos?

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: Monter_Trismegistos

Well, before adding C-44s I would add 2nd Oyodo first - at least it had its name assigned: Niyodo.

Also I dont know nothing about those C-44... Are they from 1942 Naval Programme? Like 8 new Oyodos?

It's not a name, just a designation. Niyodo means "Second Oyodo".

[Sneer]

what other what-if ship planned in CHS for Japan ???

[el cid again]

I was wondering if you were going to add these ships. I too had added four to my personal mod. BTW, what names were assigned to the C-44's? I also added the 16 units of the Shimakaze class, as well as other destroyers. What I do not have are names for them... Using hull numbers only as from what I have read the Japanese did not assign names till the ship was launched.

I have not yet worked out the names in all cases: in some cases names were tentatively considered (but not formally adopted) - but generally names would have been assigned using the historical scheme - and usually they will be names actually used on other ships built in place of these. Turns out there are 32 destroyers in this program - 16 Shimakazes as you say and 16 others - and a whole lot less of the "junk" destroyers (which build faster). I will do a BBO rework as soon as I complete CVO.

[el cid again]

Well, before adding C-44s I would add 2nd Oyodo first - at least it had its name assigned: Niyodo.

Oddly, while the name "niyodo" is in most reference books, it is NOT her name! Ni is the number two in Japanese (ichi, ni, san, shi are 1, 2, 3 and 4). Niyodo means "Number 2 Oyodo" - nothing else - as it says in one English reference.

For full details of both Agano and Oyodo classes - and several other classes (both conversions and original designs) - in all variations - see Japanese Cruisers of the Pacific War (Naval Institute Press) - a massive work by a Dutch physician and a high US government official (based on decades of research in archives). There were a number of variations of the Agano design, and the one built is not my favorite. The C-44 just about is my favorite, other than the AA variation on it (more or less substituting twin 10 cm guns for the 15 cm guns, although this makes it slightly lighter, and half a knot faster - the 10 cm guns are very heavy for their caliber and more appropriate a substitute than it might seem).

[el cid again]

Also I dont know nothing about those C-44... Are they from 1942 Naval Programme? Like 8 new Oyodos?

No fewer than 5 appear in the "5th Replacement Program" nominally for 1942 fiscal year (that is, prepared in late 1941);

This program was set aside due to Coral Sea and Midway in favor of the "Modified 5th Replacement Program" - which STILL projected 2 of them! In the event they were not actually laid down - because before they could other modifications - the "1942 Additional Program" and 1943 and 1944 War Programs - came along.

For details of all programs in English, see Appendix I of The Imperial Japanese Navy by Isaac Watts (out of print but common in libraries).

[el cid again]

what other what-if ship planned in CHS for Japan ???

Actually, this is for the CHS spinoff RHSBBO -

and for sure there are two Seaplane Carriers - modified Nisshin type - with 25 aircraft each. Many smaller vessels are not ordered, and these are replaced by 32 destroyers (16 AA type), which take longer to build.
There may be some of the AA cruisers - this is still under investigation - think "Modified Agano with 4.9 inch guns" - they have 8x10 cm - similar to the AA destroyers - but they also have a full secondary battery of 8 of the new 3 inch 60s - and two separate directors for these (the directors are of the same type - but have different internal cams and other components - for the different trajectories of the guns) - giving them 4 AA directors each controlling 4 guns - of which 3 can bear at any angle - meaning three different targets can be effectively engaged at one time - better than an Atlanta. The submarine program is modified - generally cancelled units which were planned get built - at the expense of some later modifications. Generally, these subs take longer to build, and have more power and speed, being identical to early war types - at the expense of faster building, lower powered, slower historical subs. Some transport subs cancelled get built. The post Midway "modified" program focused on submarines as well as carriers - the pre-Midway programs gave you fewere subs (and destroyers) of more high performance - usually just reorders of historically produced classes. There are some auxiliaries too - two oilers and two repair ships I think.

[kokubokan25]

This is my personal vision of the C-44 type.

[Monter_Trismegistos]

ORIGINAL: herwin
It's not a name, just a designation. Niyodo means "Second Oyodo".

Thanks, didn't know that.