Operational....Say what???

[jjax]

Hey guys.

I've been following this forum and i can say one thing; TOAW has some die hards behind it.

Anyways, Ive never played an operational game before and, I am wondering whats so different the other turn based games...such as tactical level?

Gotta know if i would like this game aswell.....thanks

[golden delicious]

Do you want a definition of the Operational level of warfare? This should help;

The title "Operational Art of War" is based on a Soviet era military term meaning, essentially, "the theory and practice of army level combat". There isn't really a hard definition of "operational level" scale. The term is generally used to describe anything in the gray area between strategy (overall conduct of a war, including non-combat factors such as industrial production) and tactics (the details of the actions of small units). If your primary focus is the battlefield, it isn't strategy. If you can't smell the smoke, you aren't really dealing with tactics. I think of the operational level as "a view of the battlefield on a scale just exceeding that at which differing ranges of various direct fire weapons are significant". - Norm Koger, TOAW game manual

[jjax]

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

Do you want a definition of the Operational level of warfare? This should help;

The title "Operational Art of War" is based on a Soviet era military term meaning, essentially, "the theory and practice of army level combat". There isn't really a hard definition of "operational level" scale. The term is generally used to describe anything in the gray area between strategy (overall conduct of a war, including non-combat factors such as industrial production) and tactics (the details of the actions of small units). If your primary focus is the battlefield, it isn't strategy. If you can't smell the smoke, you aren't really dealing with tactics. I think of the operational level as "a view of the battlefield on a scale just exceeding that at which differing ranges of various direct fire weapons are significant". - Norm Koger, TOAW game manual

Thats a hell of a def!!!!!! Thanks

[ralphtricky]

ORIGINAL: jjax

Thats a hell of a def!!!!!! Thanks

You're also going to find good scenarios that push the line between both the tactical and strategic levels.

I found that the most interesting aspect is supply. Most games at the tactical level don't model supply lines, the duration of the battles is too short.

Ralph

[Szilard]

ORIGINAL: ralphtrick

ORIGINAL: jjax

Thats a hell of a def!!!!!! Thanks

You're also going to find good scenarios that push the line between both the tactical and strategic levels.

I found that the most interesting aspect is supply. Most games at the tactical level don't model supply lines, the duration of the battles is too short.

Ralph

Just on that point, would be good somewhere down the track if TOAW could model real supply lines, rather than the current thing which lets supply be traced for 100's of km, thru enemy territory etc etc. Something like defined lines of communication which require some planning & time to move, and which can be disastrously if temporarily disrupted. And obviously not just the very weak railway supply line modelling in the game now.

Don't have anything exact in mind, covering all scales. But think it would be cool to have at least the option of defined supply lines from superior to junior HQs (etc), calculated (by default) by the program (so as not to introduce work load which many would find tedious), and with some kind of parameters specifying how long they take to get re-established if disrupted & when HQs move.

One game advantage would probably be in processing time - no more need to update supply status for every single hex, and only need to recalculate supply lines when relevant things change.

Anyway, the whole supply system in TOAW could do with a revamp, from the ground up.

[*Lava*]

ORIGINAL: Szilard
Just on that point, would be good somewhere down the track if TOAW could model real supply lines, rather than the current thing which lets supply be traced for 100's of km, thru enemy territory etc etc. Something like defined lines of communication which require some planning & time to move, and which can be disastrously if temporarily disrupted. And obviously not just the very weak railway supply line modelling in the game now.

Hi!

Have "Transport" units (the truck icon), "boost" supply for a certain radius depending on how many trucks they have, thus serving as mobile depots, same for transport ships.

Destruction of these units would have the intended effect on disrupting supply lines.. especially long ones.

Ray (alias Lava)

[golden delicious]

ORIGINAL: Lava

Have "Transport" units (the truck icon), "boost" supply for a certain radius depending on how many trucks they have, thus serving as mobile depots, same for transport ships.

This is more or less what supply units do already.

[DanNeely]

ORIGINAL: ralphtrick
I found that the most interesting aspect is supply. Most games at the tactical level don't model supply lines, the duration of the battles is too short.

You're obviously not agressive enough on the attack. In small scens it's quite possible to get an average of 6+ rounds/turn if there aren't any turn burning units around. A few turns of that will reduce your entire army to standard readyness/supply levels of 33/1.

[golden delicious]

ORIGINAL: DanNeely

ORIGINAL: ralphtrick
I found that the most interesting aspect is supply. Most games at the tactical level don't model supply lines, the duration of the battles is too short.

You're obviously not agressive enough on the attack. In small scens it's quite possible to get an average of 6+ rounds/turn if there aren't any turn burning units around. A few turns of that will reduce your entire army to standard readyness/supply levels of 33/1.

He's talking about most games, not most scenarios.

[ralphtricky]

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

ORIGINAL: DanNeely

ORIGINAL: ralphtrick
I found that the most interesting aspect is supply. Most games at the tactical level don't model supply lines, the duration of the battles is too short.

You're obviously not agressive enough on the attack. In small scens it's quite possible to get an average of 6+ rounds/turn if there aren't any turn burning units around. A few turns of that will reduce your entire army to standard readyness/supply levels of 33/1.

He's talking about most games, not most scenarios.

I agree that I'm not agressive enough. I'd like the supply model to eventually be more complete, and allow the option of requiring the player to make more decisions based upon supply. I've seen the arguments about the supply model, though, so I've got some research to do.

[*Lava*]

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

ORIGINAL: Lava

Have "Transport" units (the truck icon), "boost" supply for a certain radius depending on how many trucks they have, thus serving as mobile depots, same for transport ships.

This is more or less what supply units do already.

Well..

I'm not an expert, but do not supply units simply add to force sharing?

I'm referring to changing them such that they are supply sources, like real world depots which are set up behind an advancing army.

While it may be easier for the designer and gamer to simply allow more supply points, operationally, this is a very poor model of logistical support. And since this is suppose to be an "operational" game, the supply side really needs to get addressed and start looking like the real world.

Whether or not an army has an effective logistical tail determines whether it will advance by meters or by kilometers.

Ray (alias Lava)

[golden delicious]

ORIGINAL: Lava

Well..

I'm not an expert, but do not supply units simply add to force sharing?

No. If a supply unit is able to draw supply itself, then it increases the supply level of each hex within the force supply radius by a quarter of the maximum level (unless it's already at maximum). This allows the player to focus his logistical assets in a particular area.

Transport asset sharing is affected by any unit which has transport equipment and remains stationery for the duration of the turn.

[*Lava*]

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

ORIGINAL: Lava

Well..

I'm not an expert, but do not supply units simply add to force sharing?

No. If a supply unit is able to draw supply itself, then it increases the supply level of each hex within the force supply radius by a quarter of the maximum level (unless it's already at maximum). This allows the player to focus his logistical assets in a particular area.

Thanks..

I've tinkered with the system but never saw any difference.

Need to tinker more...

Ray (alias Lava)

[golden delicious]

ORIGINAL: Lava

Thanks..

I've tinkered with the system but never saw any difference.

Need to tinker more...

Ray (alias Lava)

It's visible in the supply trace. Move a supply unit out to an area with low supply and end the turn. Then check the supply trace.

[ralphtricky]

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

ORIGINAL: Lava

Thanks..

I've tinkered with the system but never saw any difference.

Need to tinker more...

Ray (alias Lava)

It's visible in the supply trace. Move a supply unit out to an area with low supply and end the turn. Then check the supply trace.

There are a lot of subtle things like this that aren't obvious to the casual gamer. I hope to bring those out with some UI changes in future releases.

[*Lava*]

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

ORIGINAL: Lava

Thanks..

I've tinkered with the system but never saw any difference.

Need to tinker more...

Ray (alias Lava)

It's visible in the supply trace. Move a supply unit out to an area with low supply and end the turn. Then check the supply trace.

Kewl

What would you use for a general rule of thumb for creating a supply unit? Maybe mine are too small, or I just haven't gotten far enough away from a supply point.

Ray (alias Lava)

[*Lava*]

ORIGINAL: ralphtrick
There are a lot of subtle things like this that aren't obvious to the casual gamer. I hope to bring those out with some UI changes in future releases.

Thanks Ralph!

Anything to make things a little more clear will be appreciated.

For me, I just haven't ever seen a scenario which uses dedicated supply units. Like I said, I've only tinkered with it, but it's possible my units were too small to make a difference.

Ray (alias Lava)

[golden delicious]

ORIGINAL: Lava
What would you use for a general rule of thumb for creating a supply unit? Maybe mine are too small, or I just haven't gotten far enough away from a supply point.

Ray (alias Lava)

The composition of a supply unit has no effect on its capabilities. However on your second point, the supply unit only boosts supply to units if they are not already receiving full supply.