TOAW vs. the competition

[TAIL GUNNER]

I don't own many wargames (mostly old Talonsoft stuff), but I'm curious to know what other operational wargames do better than or worse than TOAW....such as supply, combat resolution, etc.

Like the Panzer series from HPS, Decisive Battles series from SSG, Schwerepunkt's games...what aspect of operational wargaming do they do better, or worse?

Not trying to start a war or anything, just genuinely curious to know what others think.....

ChadG

[golden delicious]

There are a number of other operational-level wargames, yes. The thing about TOAW is that it has a broader scope than all of them put together.

[Fred98]

My view is that we must take advantage of computers to make wargaming better.

By this I mean that there are many variables. There info about the variables needs to be available in such a way that you can get all the info you need in one glance.

If it is nescessary to dig around to get the info it is a chore and not for me.
-

[golden delicious]

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

By this I mean that there are many variables. There info about the variables needs to be available in such a way that you can get all the info you need in one glance.

If it is nescessary to dig around to get the info it is a chore and not for me.

I think one probably gets better results from TOAW if one doesn't obsess over the details too much. Sometimes the details of the combat report matter, but usually you can just rely on the general picture.

[Fred98]

I have not played TAOW even though it has an excelent reputation among wargamers.

I have played Atomic's World at War series and am currently enjoying Battles in Italy by SSG.

SSG's games each have quite a few variables but you can find each variable by the use of short cut keys which provides a graphical overlay and the answer is instant! No searching all around the map! Wonderful!

[TAIL GUNNER]

After playing TOAW, I don't think I could ever go back to the SSG games...their "step loss" or whatever it's called system of combat resolution just seems too arcane (for the lack of a better word)....

Had great fun with Ardennes Offensive back in the day, but I had a far more realistic and historic battle playing a TOAW Vol. I Bulge scenario...

I'm not meaning to slam you or SSG...to each their own I always say...

Thanks for the comments,
ChadG

[Fred98]

Please give examples of how a player locates info in TAOW.

How to quickly locate those units with the best anti armour capability?

How to quickly locate engineer units?

How to quickly locate.................etc etc

-

[JSS]

ORIGINAL: Juggalo

After playing TOAW, I don't think I could ever go back to the SSG games...their "step loss" or whatever it's called system of combat resolution just seems too arcane (for the lack of a better word)....

Had great fun with Ardennes Offensive back in the day, but I had a far more realistic and historic battle playing a TOAW Vol. I Bulge scenario...

I'm not meaning to slam you or SSG...to each their own I always say...

Thanks for the comments,
ChadG

If you compare the BII engine to TOAW for operational level scenarios, you consistently get better campaign play from BII (IMHO for comparing game play to historical battle flow). The feel of challenges up against a Corps or Army (or even Army Group) commander come thru very well in BII. SSG's DB system is on its 5th generation engine now. I'd love to see TOAW get a full upgrade after the initial Matrix release. Then we could get a better comparison[:D]

TAO5 (i.e. the Ardennes Offensive version 5) gives a significantly better campaign experience that TOAW I Bulge.... which I believe is the input you asked for originally. Same is true of BII's Operation Husky vice Sicily 43. Again this opinion is based on comparing game situation to historical battle flow & reports (i.e. my US divisions were incredibly fatigued & had a tough time pursuing the Germans to Messina in BII... never had this feeling playing TOAW I Sicily).

With regard to steps & step losses... its an alternative way of looking at combat power. For the DB engine it works really well... it wouldn't work right for TOAW. Neither is better (at the end of the day there isn't much difference for operational level scenarios). So as far as your question on combat resolution its pretty in the eye of the beholder (I dislike the "10 phases" of a TOAW turn, so DB is better for me).

At the operational level, the last two DB engines (BIN & BII) are smoother for supply & movement than TOAW.

[golden delicious]

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

Please give examples of how a player locates info in TAOW.

By seeing he has a panzer regiment that's got green health. Yep- this'll do well on the attack.

Looking at a bunch of statistics might make you feel warm and fuzzy, but this has nothing to do with simulation. In TOAW- like in reality- you need to get a feel for what'll work and what won't work. Unlike some games, it's not a matter of totting up the right number of attack factors and knowing you'll have four chances out of six to get "defender annihilated". It's a matter of having an understanding of the Operational Art of War.

How to quickly locate those units with the best anti armour capability?

Don't know why you'd want to, but the aggregate anti-armour strength (though this is not always a complete indication of 'best capability') is visible next to the 3D icon in the top right hand corner of the screen when a unit is selected.

How to quickly locate engineer units?

They've got engineer icons- and should be named appropriately. Unless you're playing a very large scenario, it should be fairly easy to remember where you left the units last turn.

[golden delicious]

ORIGINAL: JSS

TAO5 (i.e. the Ardennes Offensive version 5) gives a significantly better campaign experience that TOAW I Bulge.... which I believe is the input you asked for originally. Same is true of BII's Operation Husky vice Sicily 43. Again this opinion is based on comparing game situation to historical battle flow & reports (i.e. my US divisions were incredibly fatigued & had a tough time pursuing the Germans to Messina in BII... never had this feeling playing TOAW I Sicily).

Well there are bad scenarios for TOAW, which is a shame. There are also good ones- and you can make your own.

Anyway, TOAW certainly has a lot of flaws- but it has more potential than any other game I'm aware of; Not just in terms of improvement of the game engine, but also for the creation of extremely high quality scenarios which work around the problems.

[Fred98]

ORIGINAL: golden delicious
....the aggregate anti-armour strength.....is visible next to the 3D icon in the top right hand corner of the screen when a unit is selected.

But there are 100 counters on the map and I need a short cut way to find them. I can't click on 100 units to find those with the best / worst anti armour strength.

ORIGINAL: golden delicious
They've got engineer icons.........

Still, I need a short cut way to find them!


Take advantage of computing to make wargaming better!

-

[TAIL GUNNER]

ORIGINAL: JSS

ORIGINAL: Juggalo

After playing TOAW, I don't think I could ever go back to the SSG games...their "step loss" or whatever it's called system of combat resolution just seems too arcane (for the lack of a better word)....

Had great fun with Ardennes Offensive back in the day, but I had a far more realistic and historic battle playing a TOAW Vol. I Bulge scenario...

I'm not meaning to slam you or SSG...to each their own I always say...

Thanks for the comments,
ChadG

If you compare the BII engine to TOAW for operational level scenarios, you consistently get better campaign play from BII (IMHO for comparing game play to historical battle flow). The feel of challenges up against a Corps or Army (or even Army Group) commander come thru very well in BII. SSG's DB system is on its 5th generation engine now. I'd love to see TOAW get a full upgrade after the initial Matrix release. Then we could get a better comparison[:D]

TAO5 (i.e. the Ardennes Offensive version 5) gives a significantly better campaign experience that TOAW I Bulge.... which I believe is the input you asked for originally. Same is true of BII's Operation Husky vice Sicily 43. Again this opinion is based on comparing game situation to historical battle flow & reports (i.e. my US divisions were incredibly fatigued & had a tough time pursuing the Germans to Messina in BII... never had this feeling playing TOAW I Sicily).

With regard to steps & step losses... its an alternative way of looking at combat power. For the DB engine it works really well... it wouldn't work right for TOAW. Neither is better (at the end of the day there isn't much difference for operational level scenarios). So as far as your question on combat resolution its pretty in the eye of the beholder (I dislike the "10 phases" of a TOAW turn, so DB is better for me).

At the operational level, the last two DB engines (BIN & BII) are smoother for supply & movement than TOAW.

Well sir, you make a pretty convincing argument....
Hell, if I had unlimited funds for purchasing wargames like I did when I was single, I'd more than likely give the DB series another look...[8D]

But my hard earned moola will most definitely be going towards the new TOAW.....I just saw an AAR for a user-made scenario called Europe Aflame which depicts WWII in it's entirety!

I do appreciate the comments.
ChadG

[golden delicious]

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

But there are 100 counters on the map and I need a short cut way to find them. I can't click on 100 units to find those with the best / worst anti armour strength.

Why do you need to know which unit has the strongest anti-armour strength on the whole of the map? This is not something I have ever found myself doing in six years of playing TOAW. Nor can I imagine any general ever trying to figure out which unit under his command was most effective against tanks. It is just not a statistic which I see as relevant to the prosecution of operations.

Take advantage of computing to make wargaming better!

Sure- but the points you raise aren't really what I recommend in this direction. Two areas where computer power is really underused is fog of war (about your own units, as well as the enemy), and delegating command responsibilities to the computer. The latter of course depends on good AI.

[sstevens06]

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

ORIGINAL: golden delicious
....the aggregate anti-armour strength.....is visible next to the 3D icon in the top right hand corner of the screen when a unit is selected.

But there are 100 counters on the map and I need a short cut way to find them. I can't click on 100 units to find those with the best / worst anti armour strength.

ORIGINAL: golden delicious
They've got engineer icons.........

Still, I need a short cut way to find them!


Take advantage of computing to make wargaming better!

-

Not sure how useful knowing the units with the best / worst anti-armor stength is in operational-level decision making. With only 100 units on a map it should be pretty easy to remember which units are / are not capable of engaging armor. As gd points out unit icons can & do aid the player.

I am in favor of the design decisions made thus far in development of TOAW ME (although execution will be the true test). Given the trade-off I'll take an improved PO over an improved UI, especially in the initial ME release. Assuming it's a hit there should be plenty of opportunities for UI enhancements.

[rhinobones]

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

Still, I need a short cut way to find them!

In COW TOAW there is a radio button on the right hand side which brings HQ units to the top of the stack, much like the old v4v games. Sounds like this is what you are after.

When suggestions were being solicited for improvements for incorporation into the Matrix version, one suggestion was to expand this radio button to include the major unit types. The suggestion seemed to have popular support and doesn't appear to be too hard o institute. Let’s hope that Ralph has been able to make the improvement.

Regards, RhinoBones

[Fred98]

ORIGINAL: golden delicious
Why do you need to know which unit has the ........

Given that each and every unit is exactly the same you question is valid.

If any 2 units have different characteristics, I expect I would need to know those characteristics so I can play well.

During the course of a game I need a short cut way to locate units with certain characterstics. And as this is a computer game I would hope for a short cut way to locate the info I need.

Its all about User Interface.

-

[golden delicious]

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

Given that each and every unit is exactly the same you question is valid.

If any 2 units have different characteristics, I expect I would need to know those characteristics so I can play well.

I only really need to know which unit is best at something if I have to choose between them for a specific action. Then you're only going to be dealing with a very small number of units- perhaps the infantry regiments of two divisions. Just pick the one with the highest numbers on the icon. That's a reasonable guide.

Its all about User Interface.

It really isn't. The user interface would be about the last thing I would change; there are dozens of things which could stand to be improved in TOAW which are much more important.

[ralphtricky]

ORIGINAL: rhinobones

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

Still, I need a short cut way to find them!

In COW TOAW there is a radio button on the right hand side which brings HQ units to the top of the stack, much like the old v4v games. Sounds like this is what you are after.

When suggestions were being solicited for improvements for incorporation into the Matrix version, one suggestion was to expand this radio button to include the major unit types. The suggestion seemed to have popular support and doesn't appear to be too hard o institute. Let’s hope that Ralph has been able to make the improvement.

Regards, RhinoBones

The HQ button doesn't do every major unit type, I don't remember anyone asking about that (I also think it might be more confusing than useful.) It does bring HQ to the top on the first click, and Artillery on the second click.

We've also added the 'N' hotkey (and a bunch of others). I would need to look up the specifics, but the 'N' hotkey cycles to the next unit that isn't attacking or in a reserve status and has movement points left. It's a key that I expect that some of the veterans won't use much, but people like me that are more interested in strategic play and less in the tactical aspects will appreciate it. It's not quite like the hotkeys in the Warlords series, but as close as I could come without major changes. There are several more hotkeys, and a thread about the somewhere. My mouse arm gets tired quickly, so I tried to add some useful hotkeys.

There are several little changes that we've made to the interface, you can now tell at a glance exactly what the supply, proficiency and readiness of the selected unit is. If you're at 1024x768 or better resolution, you can tell what percent of the turn is left, and roughly what percent you'll use if you attack right now. The one that I like is that if you have a unit that's partially visible, instead of saying 'unknown unit' the display now says 'Mororcycle Recon', or whatever the name of the unit type is. I got tired of looking up the hundred or so symbols, I haven't memorized the unusual ones.

[golden delicious]

ORIGINAL: ralphtrick

We've also added the 'N' hotkey (and a bunch of others). I would need to look up the specifics, but the 'N' hotkey cycles to the next unit that isn't attacking or in a reserve status and has movement points left. It's a key that I expect that some of the veterans won't use much, but people like me that are more interested in strategic play and less in the tactical aspects will appreciate it.

The trouble with this is that a unit with 1 out of 15 move won't be much use.

There are several little changes that we've made to the interface, you can now tell at a glance exactly what the supply, proficiency and readiness of the selected unit is. If you're at 1024x768 or better resolution, you can tell what percent of the turn is left, and roughly what percent you'll use if you attack right now.

That's pretty good.

[06 Maestro]

[[/quote]
If you're at 1024x768 or better resolution, you can tell what percent of the turn is left, and roughly what percent you'll use if you attack right now.
[/quote]


Imagine that now, that is a major improvement. If you can bet your pizza that 50% really means 50% (or at least very close) I will be strongly tempted to purchase the new version.