Sack yards are counted against pass in NFL

[steelcurtain]

Just wanted to correct some crack smokin' official that was quoted in a previous thread (that was locked for other reasons).

Wrong....if it is a designed draw play, it is not counted as a sack. Check out this old archived file at NFL.com:
http://images.nfl.com/fans/rulesschool110201.html
quote:


1) Do sacks go against a QB's passing yards or rushing yards? What if the QB is tackled behind the line of scrimmage on a designed draw play? Is that a sack or just a tackle for a loss?

Loss of yardage on sacks goes against the QB's rushing yards. If a QB is tackled behind the line of scrimmage on a designed running play, this is not considered a sack. It is merely a tackle for a loss of yardage.

No wonder there we so many bad calls throughout the playoffs last year, a senior director of officiating, Mike Pereira, is stating that sack yards count again a QB's rushing yards in the NFL...heh, that is incorrect. Just look at the stats for the last Superbowl on NFL.com: Superbowl

Hasselbeck ran 3 times for 35 yards. He was sacked 3 times. So if sacks were counted against his rushing yards he should have had 6 rushes for 21 yards. Also notice that Hasselbeck threw for 273 yards, yet on the team total it is listed as 259 yards passing (sack yards counted against the pass not the run) same for the Steelers when you add up their numbers. Sacks do not count against the individual's stats, but they count against the team's passing stats. You can see this in the players season and career stats as well.

As far as a quarterback being tackled behind the line not counting as a sack that is incorrected as well. I'm sure that everytime Mike Vick is tackled behind the line officials run over and ask him if it was a designed run or not...the only way this could possibly be applied would be when the QB downs the ball (which is counted against the run) or when the QB is tackled while trying to hand off.

Good job digging up that quote Antmeister, unfortunately that official doesn't know about the stats in a game he's supposed to be an expert in. By the way his second answer in that link is technically not correct as well - if the defense recovers the block it is their ball, no kick on 4th down.

[David Winter]

The book "The Illustrated NFL Playbook" which is an official NFL publication and produced by NFL Properties states:

"If the quarterback is tackled behind the line of scrimage, it is a quarterback sack" - page 16
"Sack - When a quarter back is tackled in the backfield by an opposing pass rusher." - page 126

No where in this book does it make reference to the play needing to be a passing play before a sack is recorded.

And for something completely unofficial;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quarterback_sack

This, by the way is not meant to be an attack on anyone.. just pointing out what some reference material states.

[frunky]

All that fussin and feudin was for nothin

[Breeze]

That link was from 2001, so it's possible that the rule may have changed since then.

BTW for you PDS experts: I heard today about a rule change next season for the NFL. Defensive linemen will no longer be allowed to line up directly over center on PAT kicks and field goals.

[Antmeister71]

ORIGINAL: steelcurtain

Just wanted to correct some crack smokin' official that was quoted in a previous thread (that was locked for other reasons).

No wonder there we so many bad calls throughout the playoffs last year, a senior director of officiating, Mike Pereira, is stating that sack yards count again a QB's rushing yards in the NFL...heh, that is incorrect. Just look at the stats for the last Superbowl on NFL.com: Superbowl

Hasselbeck ran 3 times for 35 yards. He was sacked 3 times. So if sacks were counted against his rushing yards he should have had 6 rushes for 21 yards. Also notice that Hasselbeck threw for 273 yards, yet on the team total it is listed as 259 yards passing (sack yards counted against the pass not the run) same for the Steelers when you add up their numbers. Sacks do not count against the individual's stats, but they count against the team's passing stats. You can see this in the players season and career stats as well.

You know. After looking at the last paragraph again, the official is half wrong. The first sentence is definitely wrong, but it does apply to the college game. The rest of it is correct. I posted that in refence to this:

ORIGINAL: steelcurtain
Not sure what you guys are thinking about a quarterback being tackled behind the line of scrimmage on a "run-play" is not counted as a sack in the NFL. If the quarterback drops back and then runs a draw, it will be counted as a sack if he is stopped for a loss (there is no way for a statistician to know what the play call was). I see no reason then to change this for MaxFB. An exception would be when the quarterback downs the ball at the end of a half/game - this is not counted as a sack.

What I was trying to show is that if you lose yards with any designed rushing play, it is not counted as a sack. When I mean designed, I am not talking about a play where the quarterback attempts to pass and then decides to run. That is still considered a sack. But a draw, bootleg, sneak, kneel and any other designed rushing play won't count as a sack if the quarterback doesn't reach the line of scrimmage.

As far as a quarterback being tackled behind the line not counting as a sack that is incorrected as well. I'm sure that everytime Mike Vick is tackled behind the line officials run over and ask him if it was a designed run or not...the only way this could possibly be applied would be when the QB downs the ball (which is counted against the run) or when the QB is tackled while trying to hand off.

I am glad that you used Michael Vick as an example. I remembered that he had a negative rushing game. According to your understanding, a QB should never have negative rushing yards since it is always considered a sack. I beg to differ and I will once again use NFL.com as my resource:

Here are the Ravens vs. Falcons. If you notice, Vick had negative rushing yards that day:
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/playbypla ... 03_BAL@ATL

Now before you tell me I am wrong again and that it is possibly because he kneeled the ball a number of times before each half, let me break it down for you with the play the play:

2-9-ATL34 (7:44) M.Vick up the middle to ATL 36 for 2 yards (P.Boulware).
Total rushing yards: 2

3-9-ATL16 (:21) M.Vick kneels to ATL 15 for -1 yards.
Total rushing yards: 1

2-9-BAL19 (3:15) M.Vick to BLT 28 for -9 yards (E.Reed).
What the heck happened here! I thought he couldn't get negative rushing yards.
Total rushing yards: -8

3-18-BAL28 (2:40) M.Vick to BLT 26 for 2 yards (A.Weaver). FUMBLES (A.Weaver), recovered by ATL-T.McClure at BLT 23.
Rushes for 2 yards, then fumbles. He team recovers the ball 3 yards ahead. Vick is credited for 5 total yards thanks to his team recovering that ball.
Total rushing yards: -3

2-8-BAL23 (1:01) M.Vick kneels to BLT 24 for -1 yards.
Vick feels defeated and they can't come back. Why risk injury
Total rushing yards: -4

3-9-BAL24 (:20) M.Vick kneels to BLT 25 for -1 yards.
Total rushing yards: -5

Here is another link for verification again:
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/playbypla ... 03_BAL@ATL

I have been watching football for decades (maybe not as many as Old Coach [:D]) and I thought everyone knew this rule existed in the NFL. I would find other examples but I will leave that to you guys. I know that Aaron Brooks sometimes gets negative rushing yards on any given play with that poor offensive line. Luckily I have a good memory.

Good job digging up that quote Antmeister, unfortunately that official doesn't know about the stats in a game he's supposed to be an expert in. By the way his second answer in that link is technically not correct as well - if the defense recovers the block it is their ball, no kick on 4th down.

I must admit you almost had me going there, but in this instance, the official was actually half right. It is hard for me to believe too. [:D]

[Antmeister71]

ORIGINAL: David Winter

The book "The Illustrated NFL Playbook" which is an official NFL publication and produced by NFL Properties states...

You should update your reference material. That book has been out of publication almost as long as I have been watching football. That book has been out of print since 1982.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/089480 ... e&n=283155

Hopefully you really meant another book. [:D]

[frunky]

That book is more acurrate than that head referree [X(]

[Antmeister71]

And here is yet another instance of negative yardage in a game by a quarterback. As I mentioned earlier about Aaron Brooks, he had -6 yards on just 3 plays.

Game Stats:
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/live/NFL_20051106_CHI@NO

Play-by-Play
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/playbypla ... 106_CHI@NO

[Shaggyra]

I hesitate to get in the middle of this.........

but Antmeister71 is right.

I don't have the time or the patience to look all the reference's up. I know there is an online rule book somewhere........

[frunky]

shhhhh Don't encourage him
or else he'll continue stalking the boards

I don't see him around but he probably logged out and is still lurking around

[mbMike]

Frunky,

How can you call somebody that's provided a ton more input towards the development of this game than you ever will--a stalker?

[Shaggyra]

ORIGINAL: frunky

shhhhh Don't encourage him
or else he'll continue stalking the boards

I don't see him around but he probably logged out and is still lurking around

I don't care if he is stalking or not. He's correct .... again.

As far as how David wants the game to work, that's fine. He never promised an NFL, CFL, etc. clone. I can live with that.

As far as the way the NFL does it... I would quit argueing with Antmeister71. He does his research and he is right. I really think he could be a great value to this community if we could all learn to get along.


That's my last word on this subject.[;)]

[frunky]

Yes by bringing things up that have already been brought up
and then throwing them at our faces

It's very clear that the only reason he is doing this is because he can't stand Dave and he can't accept the fact that people actually like this game.

The problems that I have we're already reported so no need to bring them up again [:)]

if I'm wrong in assuming this then I apologize

[steelcurtain]

Good research again antmeister. Not sure why people have to get so pissy on the boards, we're just having a friendly debate.

I'm curious to figure out how in the heck someone would know whether a play is a designed run and not just a busted play. There has to be more to that -9 yard run by Vick... I doubt that was a draw play. I wonder if they count plays where the QB doesn't drop back as designed runs or is it possible that those were plays where the QB was handed the ball (i.e. direct snap to RB or flea flicker).

I know that rulebook is out of date, but I doubt the league would be concerned enough to change such a rule in the last 30 years.

[Antmeister71]

And here is my unofficial reference. Look for Question#5 of this link:
http://www.buccaneers.com/news/newsdeta ... ewsid=5013

Yo answer man
When I was playing on Madden I was asking myself some questions. Like if a quarterback goes down behind the line of scrimmage with the ball, is that always a sack? And which no. of draft pick do we have this year? Thank you oh knowledgeful one.

Answer Man: I haven’t run it yet, but I don’t think “knowledgeful” is going to pass the Spell Check. Still, it was a nice thing to say, Luca.

That being said, I think most NFL fans could answer that first question, and most Buc fans could fill you in on the second. But it’s my job, not theirs, so here goes.

No, it is not a sack every time the quarterback is tackled behind the line of scrimmage. Most of the time, but not always. The determining factor is whether or not it was a designed passing play or not on which the tackle occurred.

If a quarterback drops back to pass and is tackled, then yes, that is a sack. However, if he were to, say, try to sneak it over the middle and get hit two yards behind the line, that would just be a tackle. Or a tackle-for-loss to be specific, though neither is an official NFL statistic, as we discussed at some length in Volume 19 in December of 2004.

That latter play is a running play by the quarterback, and no sack can be awarded on a running play. Also, there are no sacks on aborted plays. That is, if the quarterback fumbles the snap and has to fall on it, and is then touched down by a defender, that is not a sack, even if the play was going to be a pass attempt.

If the quarterback drops back to pass and finds no one open, the starts to scramble around the end to avoid the pass-rushers, that is still a passing play. If a defender gets him down before or at the line of scrimmage, it will be a sack. The only confusion comes when the statistics crew in the press box is unsure whether a play was designed to be a run or a pass.

This comes into play most often when one of the teams has a quarterback who is a gifted runner, like Atlanta’s Michael Vick. The Falcons clearly have designed runs for Vick in the playbook, even some out of the shotgun. On one play during the Falcons’ visit to Tampa last December, Vick took a shotgun snap and a Buccaneer blitzer was allowed to run in unabated from the right side. Vick then ran around left end. The stat crew might have interpreted that as the blitzer forcing Vick to give up on the pass and scramble, but in fact this play was a designed run.

These decisions can be appealed after the game, too. There was a memorable play during the Bucs’ Super Bowl season in which safety John Howell dragged Vick down for a loss on what appeared to be a sack on a perfectly-timed blitz. In fact, however, Vick was about to try to run the ball around the right side (and he would have had a lot of open field had Howell not hung on).

The play looked like a sack and was ruled one by the stat crew in the Buccaneers’ press box. However, the Falcons’ coaching staff alerted the Elias Sports Bureau on Monday that the play was supposed to be a run and thus Howell’s tackle was changed to be just that, a tackle. Elias, the NFL’s official statistics service, doesn’t just take a team’s word for it on these occasions, however. There are a variety of cues that one can look for when watching a play on film to determine whether it was going to be a run or a pass, most notably the early movements of the offensive linemen. If they are dropping back onto their heels and waiting for contact, it was probably going to be a passing play. If they were surging forward at the snap, it was probably going to be a running play.

As to your second question, Luca, the Bucs have the 23rd pick in the first round of this year’s NFL Draft. They are actually tied with four other teams in a grouping of rotating picks, though they start out at the front of that group. In Round Two, the Bucs will drop to the back of that group, at pick number 27. They will then move up to 26th in the third round, 25th in the fourth round, and so on.

[Antmeister71]

ORIGINAL: steelcurtain

Good research again antmeister. Not sure why people have to get so pissy on the boards, we're just having a friendly debate.

I'm curious to figure out how in the heck someone would know whether a play is a designed run and not just a busted play. There has to be more to that -9 yard run by Vick... I doubt that was a draw play. I wonder if they count plays where the QB doesn't drop back as designed runs or is it possible that those were plays where the QB was handed the ball (i.e. direct snap to RB or flea flicker).

I know that rulebook is out of date, but I doubt the league would be concerned enough to change such a rule in the last 30 years.

To answer your first question, I am not quite sure why people get pissy. There was no name calling by either of us and both had stated our opinion on how we understood the rule.

Now how they determine how they can tell it is a running play is by how the offensive lineman react as indicated in my post above. On running plays, the offensive lineman move forward to set up block for the quarterback. On passing plays, they drop back and try to create a pocket. Now on draw plays, it gets a little tricky, but you can using tell it was a designed play if the quarterback had "no intent to pass" the ball. In other words, he never lifts his arm above the waist to prepare for a throwing motion.

Trick plays get ridiculous, but this is pretty much an interpretation much like figuring out an error in baseball. Thank you for having a civilized debate/arguement and not resorting to name calling and accusations.

[steelcurtain]

Good stuff in that post. I thought of the OL blocking as I was about to hit the sack last night. I'm amazed that the coaching staff actually alerts the NFL's statistics service on this type of call. Almost 30 years of watching football and I thought I knew it all...

[Gman1025]

I know I am a little late with this but in the CFL sack yardage is under "team losses". Which is good as you get to see the real numbers in the box score.