Victory conditions I'd like to test.

[mogami]

Hi, I have an idea I would like to test in the future.
In WITP Japan does not have to maintain her non military/production economy and this releases a large portion of the merchant fleet for use else where.
I would like to install a House Rule that directly impacted the Victory Conditions.

First Japan would have to allot and document AK load space in the amount of 1,400,000 load points (200x7k AK) (Japan has 311x7k AK on 7 Dec 1941)

Using the points of origin for material required by Japanese civilian economy of Port Arthur (57,32) Shanghai (52,39) and Taipei (50,43) and beginning in Jan 42 the Japanese player would need to log the movement of 1,400,000 load points of AK to Osaka (63,42) every month.
To start with the TF must be unescorted. Japan is allowed to assign air ASW over the routes and the Allied player would have to be aware that non CETF might traverse these lanes and be escorted.
No single port can provide more then 50 percent of monthy load value.

example.
1Jan 1942 Japanese player when returning the file notes CETF formed Port Arthur with 70k load points.
2. Jan 1942 CETF enroute Osaka from Port Arthur located in hex 58,34

9 Jan CETF arrives Osaka monthy total Jan 42 70k
(all 3 ports are approx 7 days from Osaka) (so rather then 200x7k AK Japan could use 100x7k AK making 2 trips each per month)

OK what impact on game?
On last day of each month Japan checks total arrived in Osaka
If equal to or over 1,400,000 then no effect.
If below 1,400,000 then Japanese must surrender if
1. Total number of months missed in row equals 6
2. Allied player owns airfield in supply large enough to fly heavy bombers with normal loads in range of Tokyo/Osaka,Nagaskai or Nagoya

Victory point totals have no impact on game and Japan cannot claim auto victory even if she meets the requirements. The Allies win simply by meeting the above conditions.

You can see the Japanese player will need to plan a defense that keeps at least two of the above routes open and maintain enough AK to meet the monthy totals.

Special rules
1. For every AK assigned to CETF missions that is torpedod by Allied submarine the Japanese player may assign 1 escort (DD/DE/PC/PG/MSW/ML) Not per TF but total.
So after 6 AK have been hit Japan can have 6 escorts all with 1 TF or 1 with 6 but never more then 6 contained in CETF at one time.

AK used in CETF may carry loads from Japan to one of the 3 ports but to count for CE total they must move from port to Osaka empty. Japan do not have to report movement to these ports only from these ports to Osaka.

As Japan I will abide to all my other restrictions but I'd allow another player more freedom but I'm not looking for a Japanese player who does not know my style and is willing to conform to it. This is a test not a battle of ego's. I don't care if AAR is maintained but a log of CETF movement has to be posted by the Japanese player.

If you don't like this idea thats fine. Stay out of my thread. [X(]
Comments on expanding or detailing the concept are welcome.

[Monter_Trismegistos]

Ok, I will stay out of your thread

[treespider]

If below 1,400,000 then Japanese must surrender if
1. Total number of months missed in row equals 6

I kind of sort of like the idea....

However what's to prevent the Japanese from making a big effort once every three months then nothing in between?

Where diod you get your 1,400,000 figure?

[MarcA]

Mog

Why does the Japanese player have to move the AK's around so much. Why don't you just say something along the lines of: 150AK7's must be in a named port at anytime, such as PT Arthur or Nagasaki or similar. You can just assume these ships are running CE duties. You could also have a house rule no airbased port attack on this port to avoid mass sinking of the AK's, or no attack without warning, something along those lines.

You can still assign special status to Pt Arthur, Shanghai and Taipei so if two fall to the allies the game is over for the Japs. It would have a very similar effect on the game overall, be less work for the Japs and be easier to track. The Japanese player good just post a screen shot as evidence the ships are not in use.

Just a thought.

[Mike Solli]

I won't presume to know Mogami's thoughts, but it appears to me that this represents the movement of stuff (don't want to say resources for fear of confusion) for the civilian economy. This did happen during the war. It would represent the wear and tear on the merchant fleet as well as useage of fuel. Some of the ships in the game (I think) were used for the civilian economy so this would take them out of the military portion of the game (for a period of the month, at least) without just removing them with the editor.

[Black Mamba 1942]

It's a good idea.
Maybe a little too complicated for most IJN players.[;)]

Probably better to have a certain number of AK's just remain in a major port.
Easier to keep track of, and the IJN player could enclose a censored screenshot, every now and then.
Just to make sure of their adherence to maintaining them at a port.

[Mike Solli]

Heh, I pretty much do that with AKs anyway. I've found that (at least early in the war) there is an abundance of AKs. Now, all my TKs (except for those in repair) are in use.

[treespider]

Or require the Japanese to establish CS convoys between certain ports whether needed or not.

[Mike Scholl]

Mogami. As I understand your proposal, you are looking for someone to play the Allies while you test your "victory conditions". If you don't have any luck before August, drop me a note and I'll be happy to oblidge you. That's when I retire and will have the time to enjoy playing. I do not play a "wild and wooly" Allied game, sticking fairly closely to a more historic pattern with a few personal variations. Even be willing to "freeze" ground units in China to remove a time consuming sub-game from the effort. Hopefully you will find someone sooner..., but if not.

[Brady]

Ahh, I apricate the thought and the intent but I think your off a tad on this bud.

Very Little of Japan's Merchant tonage during the war actualy went to sustaining the civilian ecenomy. Prety muchh all shiping was used to suply the industrial base, which fed the War Machine. Given that the Stock WiTP game does not model a huge chunk of the Merchant tonage Japan built during the war, representing I beleave something on the order of 50% missing on the whole, I think this is kinda crazey imo.

I posted on this extensively in the past, I will dig up the figures from some old post's for you.

[Brady]

Ok, a post from the from the past on this "Pet Peave" for me subject (Post is by Me):

..................................................................................................

Pry, That half you refer to is not realy Half, while it is true that for prety much all the war, that Half the Shiping was under Civilain controel, and Half was under Military controle, the Civilian half looked somthing like this:

" Coal transportation would occupy 1.8 million tons, while the movement of Aragrcutural products and suplies (450,000)and steal making materials(300,000) would absord the rest."

So as you can see the Civialan controeld shiping acounted for the movement of the suplys that fueled the empires war machine, the Military ships were largerly and soly ocupied with the movement and sustaining of troops in the field.

Tankers almost soly suplied the Militarys neads, and thusly should be almost interly considered as Military:

"Every year of the war the nation would use from 4 to 4.5 million tons and the Military would account for the bulk of this total"


But as you say the Ecenomy of Japan in WiTP and the Neads of the Empire have been artificaly created based losely on Historical fact, to better facilitate good game play. So much of this is then mute. Howeaver this still playes directly into the Allied sides hands, in that WiTP has Cut the Empires playable felat by 50% (the Steal Hulled fleat), while the Number of Allied Subs Is I belave still at 100%, and still at 100% or near to it I suspect are all those things that would also hunt them like Planes, Mines ect. Further compounding this problem is the larger than average number of Big ships present to acheave the ttoal tonage figures, which is also aidding the Allied cause. If you want to creat Historical proportions then you nead to adjust the number of predators, and better represent their prey.

On a side note, I do understand that the Wodden Hulled fleat, is not represented in the game because it is simply to vast to model, these ships also were the targets of the attentions of Allied subs and aircraft throught the war.


.................................................................................................................

Only 450,000 tons above is realy going toward a Civilian use, and of that an untold amount is going to be used by the Military for food stuff's.

I know you aksed nay sayers to stay away, but given how much effort your puting into this I thought I would try and save you some of your time so it could be used to other end's.

If you want to test this though, I can play another game[:)]

[dtravel]

The reason for not just leaving X number of Japanese AKs in some corner somewhere is because under the alternative victory conditions Mogami wants to test, they are the whole point. The Allied player wins by sinking enough shipping that the Japanese player can no longer meet the requirement. Just sitting them in some out of the way port denies the Allies the opportunity to sink them.

Its also an interesting look at the differences between how the US and Japan looked at "victory" in the Pacific. Japan thought that if they bloodied the Americans nose enough they'd give up and negiotate a peace. This is the current VP system. The Americans came into it with the goal of destroying the Japanese ability to make war by destroying their economy, as reflected by Mogami's victory conditions. I'd be very interested in seeing how it works out but am not a viable PBEM player.

[racndoc]

Mogami.....this is an interesting concept. If you would like to test this as Japan I would be happy to provide the Allied foil. Finally Allied subs would have something important to accomplish in the early war period.

[mogami]

ORIGINAL: dtravel

The reason for not just leaving X number of Japanese AKs in some corner somewhere is because under the alternative victory conditions Mogami wants to test, they are the whole point. The Allied player wins by sinking enough shipping that the Japanese player can no longer meet the requirement. Just sitting them in some out of the way port denies the Allies the opportunity to sink them.

Its also an interesting look at the differences between how the US and Japan looked at "victory" in the Pacific. Japan thought that if they bloodied the Americans nose enough they'd give up and negiotate a peace. This is the current VP system. The Americans came into it with the goal of destroying the Japanese ability to make war by destroying their economy, as reflected by Mogami's victory conditions. I'd be very interested in seeing how it works out but am not a viable PBEM player.

Hi, I knew at least one person would see the point.
In the future WITP is not going to have leader bugs and vanishing units. Submarines will be harder to find. The Soviets won't be steam rolled and air to air will be more moderate.

All of the non bug issues can already be dealt with simply by House rules or playing styles.
If I can find a non airfield overloader, who does not transorm every bomber group into B-17/24 then between the two of us we can recreate more closely the historical enviroment in which both sides planned and excuted their operations.

I don't wish to script the game just tone it down a bit. KB can operate together. There will be major surface actions (if both sides commit forces)

However as Japan I don't intend on fighting in China. (niot even to train airgroups. )

The Japanese Plan for conduct of war is simple. Capture the required resource/oil and then defned them against all Allied attempts to cut off movement from SRA to Home Islands.

The 1,400,000 load points per month does not actually represent any specific material but the ability of Japan to continue to function and make war.
Any senseless loss of AK brings Japan closer to losing the game. And I wish to see the ASW interaction over the course of the war. So I will add the Allied player must keep track of all Allied submarine encounters.

Date target result

As soon as the next patch is released I'll commence doing a Japanese turn 1. I am going to limit myself to only one PBEM game at a time (I still have 3 running)

[Brady]

Interesting. I see what he is trying to do, and why, the problem is that the game is so far off in terms of modeleing the ecenomy for Japan and the ships they had to move the material it is a very lopsided battle, granted it nead be historicaly, thought the Japanese helped this along by their aproach to managing their merchant fleat. Again in a game that so shorts japan in terms of raw tonage and bottoms, and give the allies all they had to hunt the real Japanese merchant fleat for the most part, whats the outcome going to be....

[dtravel]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

In the future WITP is not going to have leader bugs and vanishing units. Submarines will be harder to find. The Soviets won't be steam rolled and air to air will be more moderate.

So many jokes, so little time. [:D] Can we settle for just cueing a Conan O'Brien "In the year 2000" skit? [:D][:D][;)]

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: Brady


" Coal transportation would occupy 1.8 million tons, while the movement of Aragrcutural products and suplies (450,000)and steal making materials(300,000) would absord the rest."
If you want to test this though, I can play another game[:)]

So the theory is that if you repeat this nonsense often enough people will believe it? A nation of over 70,000,000 people with an area the size of California, less than 3% of which is areable, needs only 450,000 tons of shipping to import all the foodstuffs it requires? And if we believe this, you have a great real estate deal to offer us in the Okeefinokie Swamp..., Right?

[juliet7bravo]

"So the theory is that if you repeat this nonsense often enough people will believe it?"

Those figures are straight out of "The Japanese Merchant Marine in WW2", by Parillo (Chapter 2, page 34)...a very good book, well written, and well sourced. The figures in turn, are derived from the Japanese Cabinet Planning Board as a forecast of shipping requirements to support the war effort. No doubt they're optomistic, but are an admirable starting point.

You could probably argue some of the finer points, or some of Parillo's findings, but in general it's a "one stop shop" as an overview of Japanese shipping during WW2. It includes all sorts of nifty charts and figures specifying tonnage requirements, imports, resource centers, manufacturing requirements, convoy routes, shipyards, ect. It even includes charts showing tonnage available for each month of the war, broken down by military and civilian use, and by type.

[Sneer]

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

ORIGINAL: Brady


" Coal transportation would occupy 1.8 million tons, while the movement of Aragrcutural products and suplies (450,000)and steal making materials(300,000) would absord the rest."
If you want to test this though, I can play another game[:)]

So the theory is that if you repeat this nonsense often enough people will believe it? A nation of over 70,000,000 people with an area the size of California, less than 3% of which is areable, needs only 450,000 tons of shipping to import all the foodstuffs it requires? And if we believe this, you have a great real estate deal to offer us in the Okeefinokie Swamp..., Right?

since when California is an indicative to anything ???

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: Sneer

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

ORIGINAL: Brady


" Coal transportation would occupy 1.8 million tons, while the movement of Aragrcutural products and suplies (450,000)and steal making materials(300,000) would absord the rest."
If you want to test this though, I can play another game[:)]

So the theory is that if you repeat this nonsense often enough people will believe it? A nation of over 70,000,000 people with an area the size of California, less than 3% of which is areable, needs only 450,000 tons of shipping to import all the foodstuffs it requires? And if we believe this, you have a great real estate deal to offer us in the Okeefinokie Swamp..., Right?

since when California is an indicative to anything ???

In this case, sense it has the same basic "surface area" as the Japanese Home Islands, it's indicative if SIZE. The Japanese can only wish that the Home Islands had the same amount of tillable acreage....